Fisheries Committee on April 22nd, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Colleagues, I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 33 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

I want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people and by expressing gratitude that we're doing the important work of this committee on lands they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108, the committee is meeting to continue its study of Atlantic mackerel and Atlantic herring fisheries.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would like to ask our in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants but particularly the interpreters.

Pursuant to our routine motions, I can advise the committee members that all witnesses appearing virtually have successfully completed the required technical testing.

I have just a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic. Please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience.

Before I welcome the witnesses, I will note for members right from the start that we probably won't have time to go in camera today, because we're ending the committee at 6 p.m.

With that, I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

Participating by video conference, we have Barry Darby; Dylan MacIntyre, fisherman; and Dr. Erin Carruthers, senior fisheries scientist from the Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union.

From the Maritime Fishermen's Union, we have Martin Mallet, executive director, and Louis Ferguson, assistant director, Homarus. They are both here in person.

With that, we will begin our opening statements from witnesses.

We will start with you, Mr. Darby. You have five minutes or less.

[Barry Darby, As an Individual]

Good evening, and thank you for this opportunity.

I'm Barry Darby. I'm a former harvester and retired college educator, formerly from the fishing community of Burin, Newfoundland.

For years my main focus has been doing research and advocacy on fishery management policy with my partner, Helen Forsey. Our policy initiative, Changing Course, recommends a shift to input-based management for our fisheries. This is directly relevant to the subject of your current study.

I want to address primarily the science and the analysis of our mackerel and herring stocks, and current management and rebuilding efforts.

In our view, three major factors severely limit the science, management and rebuilding plans for these stocks. First, there are huge, inherent uncertainties in attempts to measure stock biomass, to regulate removal and to predict their effects. Those interlocking uncertainties render largely invalid the calculations and resulting operational decisions based on them, such as spawning stock biomass, total allowable catch, limit reference points, rebuilding plans, etc.

The second factor is confusing fishing with catching. Catches in biomass are quantities that can be measured or estimated in kilotonnes. Fishing, on the other hand, is an activity involving many different variants and units of measurement. Trying to measure fishing or overfishing in kilotonnes is unscientific, gravely misleading and diverts our focus from managing the fishing itself.

The third factor is a false assumption that humans can rebuild fish stocks. Restoring ecosystem balance is done by nature, not by humans. We can only help with rebuilding and stop hindering it. To do so, we must understand the complexity of the ecosystem and our role as apex predators in it.

How can we help rebuild and maintain Atlantic mackerel and herring stocks and harvest them optimally? As we said in our Changing Course brief to this committee in 2022, DFO should stop focusing on how much fish we harvest, that is, the TACs and the quotas, and start focusing on how we go about harvesting. Instead of relying on output controls, trying to predict the unpredictable using highly uncertain data and error-prone computer modelling, DFO should shift to a system of input controls. Input-based management, IBM, regulates the inputs involved in the actual fishing activity. Those are: what fishing gear is allowed, how much of it can be used, by whom, when, and where.

To put into practice this slow-fishing IBM approach, DFO would mandate selective harvesting of mackerel and herring using low-impact gear like hook and line and gillnets. Specifications, that is, limits, would cover numbers, size and depth of gear and its use only by qualified commercial harvesters in designated areas and during specified times. This seemingly less efficient way of fishing would catch mainly mid-sized and middle-aged fish, leaving the younger recruits to grow and the largest spawners to continue replenishing the stocks.

It would also result in higher-quality product and would, in many cases, permit continuous fishing across a range of species year-round, which would benefit harvesters, processors and communities.

Under IBM, built-in feedback loops make the system largely self-adjusting, thus preventing overfishing. For example, if mackerel were scarce, the regulations for gear and other inputs would make overcatching impossible. If the fish were plentiful, harvests would be correspondingly large.

Proper monitoring and assessment would of course indicate success and problems in real time informing specific changes to be made for the following year. The proof of this is in the pudding. Newfoundland and Labrador's quotaless lobster fishery has been using input-based management with great success for almost a century, and many successful invertebrate fisheries in the U.S. also use it.

In closing, I'd like to say that perhaps we could suggest to our American neighbours that they apply input-based management to their mackerel and herring stocks as well.

Thank you for the opportunity, and I look forward to your questions and comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Darby.

With that, we're going to turn the floor over to Mr. MacIntyre for five minutes or less.

[Dylan MacIntyre, Fisherman, As an Individual]

My name is Dylan McIntyre. I'm 31 years old and from Souris, Prince Edward Island. I'm a commercial fisherman. I own a lobster, mackerel and bluefin tuna licence.

My first experience with lobster fishing happened when I was just a young boy. I spent a full day on the water with my grandfather and uncle. After that day of fishing I knew I wanted to be a fisher person, be a captain and own a licence of my own I quickly realized that for me to accomplish this goal, it was going to take a lot of sacrifice and hard work. That was something I was okay with.

At the age of 18, I jumped on a plane and went to work in the Alberta oil sands to start saving money to buy a licence. I would work there all fall and winter and come home in the spring to work on the back of a lobster boat. I continued this cycle of life until I saved up enough money for a down payment on a licence of my own.

In the fall of 2018, at 22 years old and after many trips back and forth between P.E.I. and Alberta, I accomplished the goal I'd always dreamed of since I was child: owning my own lobster licence.

Then I began to prepare for the 2019 fishery. There were a lot of highs and lows in learning experiences in my first year as a captain. I made my annual payment, but just barely. I was very thankful there was a mackerel fishery to participate in as soon as the lobster season ended.

I was able to fish mackerel all summer and fall. This mackerel fishery allowed me to have a paycheque every week for myself and a crew member. It was hard work, but when you love what you do, it doesn't feel like work.

This mackerel fishery enabled me to catch and freeze enough mackerel for lobster bait. I took great care of the fish to make sure I had the best possible bait. At a cost of approximately 75¢ a pound, I was able to freeze the bait at Eastern Cold Storage and pay a crew. Being able to catch my own bait and store it was a huge savings for the upcoming season. I continued to do this for the next three years.

Then DFO shut down the fishery. This was crippling news to me and lots of other fishers who not only relied on this fishery for another income to help pay the bills, but also relied on this fishing to catch their own good-quality bait, which saved tens of thousands of dollars. When this happened, it took away part of our independence, because now we would have to rely on getting bait from a packer or buyer.

Fishermen now have to buy mackerel that comes from other countries, like the United States, Norway, Spain and Ireland, to name a few. The cost now ranges between $2 and $3 a pound, depending on the size and quality. Now fishermen from all over Quebec, New Brunswick, P.E.I., Nova Scotia and Newfoundland have to sit at home knowing there are plenty of fish in their own waters that they are not allowed to catch. Fishermen from all the provinces I mentioned are sitting at home wishing they could be on the water doing their job.

We see an abundance of mackerel feeding on lobster larvae on top of the water every day in June when we are on the water fishing lobsters. I believe we will see a decline in the lobster fishery in years to come if we aren't allowed to start harvesting mackerel again.

In the summer and fall when we go tuna fishing, we see mackerel schooling on top of the water everywhere. There's just no need....

The closure of this fishery not only affects the fishermen. It affects the processors who buy mackerel, the individuals who work on the wharfs, truck drivers, local fishing stores, fuel suppliers, grocery store owners, plant workers and processing facilities like Eastern Cold Storage, which operates in my community.

Last summer, a 200 metric ton bait fishery was open for three days, and then it closed because the quota was caught. That tells me there are plenty of fish in the water. This winter the American fishery put their quota up 7,300 metric tons, on top of the 3,200 metric tons they had in the 2025 season.

It’s a hook and line fishery, which means no bycatch. It means it’s the cleanest fishery in the world. It blows my mind that DFO and scientists say the stock isn’t healthy when fishermen from all over are saying they see many mackerel schooling on top of the water and are marking them on their fish finders. It feels like our voices aren’t being heard, which is very frustrating for people like me who rely on this fishery and love to participate in it.

I would like to thank the committee for this invitation. I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. MacIntyre.

Next we're going to Erin Carruthers from FFAW for five minutes, or less.

[Erin Carruthers, Senior Fisheries Scientist, Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union]

Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with the committee as part of your study of Atlantic mackerel and Atlantic herring.

As introduced, my name is Erin Carruthers, and I'm a fisheries scientist with the Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union. As many of you know, the FFAW represents close to 10,000 fish harvesters in addition to membership working in fish plants, manufacturing, hospitality and other sectors.

FFAW presented to this committee in November 2022 with respect to the mackerel closure. All of our observations and comments from our 2022 submission still stand. Harvesters continue to report an abundance of mackerel throughout Newfoundland and Labrador waters.

In 2023, FFAW presented results from a survey of 185 harvesters with an average of 31 years of fishing experience each, 85 of whom reported that mackerel are “more abundant” or “much more abundant” than five years ago. We repeated this study last year, and 111 harvesters responded, 90% of whom reported that mackerel are “more abundant” or “much more abundant”.

Those survey results give a sense of the overall scope and consistency of observations across NAFO divisions and over the years, but it's also important to document the rationale that harvesters provide for their assessment of mackerel abundance.

When discussing the abundance of mackerel, harvesters describe the spatial extent of mackerel schools. Harvesters describe the size and frequency of the aggregations. Harvesters relate those observations to what they've seen over their fishing careers. Harvesters' assessment of the health of the stock is not simply because you can see mackerel on the top of the water, as was suggested earlier in this study. This mackerel behaviour has not changed over time. Harvesters' assessment is based on extent, timing, duration and number of aggregations, and on comparisons with their observations over a lifetime of fishing.

Harvesters are frustrated. What do we do? We have more than a gap in understanding. We have more than a difference in assessment of the health of the stock. The recent DFO stock assessment states that the stock is in the critical zone, with a projected recovery time of 18 years. Harvesters throughout Newfoundland and Labrador are reporting that mackerel are abundant. To quote, “It's the most I've seen in 30-plus years,” or “It's the best I've seen since the 1980s.” How do we begin to reconcile these vastly different perceptions of stock status? We have a problem here.

In my job as a fisheries scientist and working within a fishing union, one of the most important questions I learned to ask is, why do you think that is? Asked another way it's, how do you know what you know? The same questions asked within a scientific or assessment meaning are, what are the assumptions and the data used to build your model and understanding, and how do you know what you know?

In the case of the mackerel stock assessment, the contentious issue seems to be estimating adult or spawning stock biomass from the egg survey. The question is not whether or not egg surveys are a scientifically defensible approach. Rather, the question is, is this approach working here for this species at this time? Are there external data and observations that challenge that assessment? In the case of the northern contingent of Northwest Atlantic mackerel, there are.

What do we do? Dr. Vigneault mentioned two collaborative data collection projects in his presentation to this committee. The first started after the fishery was closed, with collection done by harvester organizations, including the FFAW. As part of this project, FFAW worked with six harvesters to provide four or five samples per season. This project provides data on the sizes and ages of mackerel, but it's not comparable to commercial data. It's not comparable to the information you would get from a commercial fishery. There are differences in gear type. For one, there's no seining, and sampling is really limited in space and time.

The second project, which we're just starting, is designed for broad sampling of a migratory fast-moving and fast-growing fish. It involves opportunistic sampling from harvesters on the water throughout the fishing season and throughout Newfoundland and Labrador waters and honestly could be an example for other parts where mackerel are.

The first project was designed to fill gaps in sampling following the commercial fishing closure. The second, we hope, is designed to address some of the differences between DFO's stock assessment of Atlantic mackerel and harvesters' assessment of stock health. The project is designed to document the extent as well as the sizes and spawning stage of mackerel throughout Newfoundland and Labrador waters.

Just as a note, unfortunately, my colleague Richard Gillett, a long-time pelagic fish harvester, was unable to attend. He knows far more about herring and Newfoundland herring fisheries than I do or ever will. In his absence, I will make a few comments.

Many of the issues for Newfoundland herring are the same as with mackerel. There is a vast gulf between harvesters and DFO's assessment of stock health. As an example, the mobile gear TAC for Trinity Bay was almost all landed within two hours. There were only 12 or 13 boats at it. They do not fish throughout the bay, but were located near ports and the pumps required to offload the fish. Still, the Trinity Bay mobile gear allocation was almost entirely landed within two hours.

Data collection for Newfoundland herring on the northeast and south coasts provides detailed information on the age composition but, again, has issues with estimating the overall biomass or the scale of the stock.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Ms. Carruthers, I'm afraid we are over time, so could you wrap it up? I know you're speaking for your colleague who couldn't be here, but if you could come to a conclusion, that would be appreciated.

[Erin Carruthers]

For both mackerel and herring, the contentious issue is the estimate of the stock biomass.

I think we're going to have to work together to develop indices or surveys, working with commercial fish harvesters, to better estimate the scale of the biomass. I don't know how else we're going to solve this problem.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

Of course, there will be more time in questions to go through some of those details.

With that, we're going to conclude with the opening remarks from the Maritime Fishermen's Union.

You have the floor for five minutes or less.

[Martin Mallet, Executive Director, Maritime Fishermen's Union]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for allowing us the opportunity to come here today to present on this important study.

My name is Martin Mallet, and I'm the executive director of the Maritime Fishermen's Union. I am accompanied today by my colleague, Louis Ferguson, an assistant director for our R and D branch, Homarus.

I will be speaking in French for my opening statement.

The Maritime Fishermen’s Union, MFU, represents over 1,300 inshore owner-operator fish harvesters in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Since the MFU was established in 1977, its mission has been to represent, promote and defend the interests of Maritime inshore fish harvesters and their communities.

In 2022, the MFU appeared before this committee and spoke out against an unjustified fishery closure. Four years later, we are forced to conclude that, over time, we have been proven right on several critical points. Mackerel and herring are very important forage species in the food chain, but they are also integral parts of the economic engine of inshore fisheries. Currently, our members are forced to import these fish from other countries that often have less stringent management standards. The bait and commercial fisheries are also tightly woven into our culture, and having to import bait fish currently swimming around our docks in large numbers is inconceivable.

Given these observations, it is natural for us to question the assessment of Atlantic mackerel and spring herring. Since 2022, the increase in biomass should also have been observed in the science documents. According to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans scientists, without a fishery, there was a very high likelihood that stocks would improve. However, assessment after assessment, the situation is still no better according to the department's scientists.

Fish harvesters are facing dramatic increases in their operating costs, particularly for bait. In 2022, the talk was about the price of mackerel, which had increased from $1.25 a pound to $1.65 a pound. Now, in 2026, the price has increased to nearly $3 a pound. Protecting stocks is essential, but must not be done at the expense of the economic survival of the fish harvesters in our coastal communities. Our fish harvesters cannot wait any longer.

We have a few recommendations for this committee.

First, needless to say, we ask this committee to recommend to the Minister to implement a plan to reopen the fishery for these two species as soon as possible.

Second, for mackerel, as recommended in 2022, a co-management agreement with the United States is critical. The significant increase in their 2026 quota is one indicator of this. In Canada, the assessment update, expected next month, in May, will include this figure and potentially keep us tied up at the dock. The opening of the bait fishery last year was greatly appreciated, but the resource can actually withstand a greater fishing effort using more selective fishing gear. This has also been mentioned by other witnesses.

The level of abundance noted all along the coast of Atlantic Canada in fall is also a key indicator of the species’ abundance. What fishers see has to be taken into consideration. I attest to that, fishers attest to it and other associations say the same thing, all along the Atlantic coast.

Third, in reopening the commercial mackerel fishery, sustainable capture methods that improve size selectivity must be prioritized to better protect the juvenile age classes.

Fourth, regarding spring herring, our organization and the nine other associations concerned in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence are all in agreement on a sound management approach. Although we were all surprised by science’s most recent assessment, we agree that all forage species in the critical zone of the precautionary approach must have an integrated sentinel fisheries plan or even a scientific one, which is not currently the case. For example, the removal of 5% of the spawning biomass, which would provide us with additional scientific data, would be a minimal effort. That would be equivalent to the typical statistical error in science. The sentinel fishery could be spread over four weeks. Therefore, we propose that a fishery reopen next May to allow sampling for the stock assessment. However, there isn't much time left for that to happen.

Here is the fifth recommendation. We request that the rigidity of the precautionary approach framework be re-evaluated in order to integrate an adaptive ecosystem approach. We propose that an adaptive proportional allocation system be adopted, giving the fisheries a fixed, ecologically reasonable percentage of ecosystem productivity, independent of short-term fluctuations in stock biomass. Such a system, by integrating catches with current ecosystem production, rather than with biomass thresholds linked to sometimes distant historical data, could reduce socio-economic disturbances while maintaining conservation performance.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

That concludes our opening remarks.

We'll go right into our first round of questions, starting with Mr. Small.

You have six minutes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Carruthers, have you seen the NOAA document that outlines how the United States set their mackerel quota at nearly 11,000 tonnes this year?

[Erin Carruthers]

I've heard people talk about this assessment. I do not have a copy of it in hand.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Are you aware that they held their quota back by approximately 500 tonnes because of the bait fishery in Canada?

[Erin Carruthers]

Yes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Historically, the Canadian mackerel quota matched that of the United States. It was a key recommendation in the report that came as a result of the study you referenced earlier.

Mr. Carney said he listened to what he heard at the wharf when he was making those fisheries management decisions, or when his government was making those decisions. Do you think his government has so far carried through on that election promise when it comes to mackerel?

[Erin Carruthers]

With respect to mackerel, no. With respect to snow crab, yes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you.

Monsieur Mallet, I think you were a witness at that 2022 study. You saw the all-party recommendation to match the American quota. Do you think DFO would heed that recommendation at this time for the coming season?

[Martin Mallet]

I would hope it would be strongly considered, just by the fact that if we don't fish the fish that are there, it gives the onus to the Americans to raise their own quota. That's my perception, anyway.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Is it looking to you like we are practising conservation so that Americans can exploit this biomass?

[Martin Mallet]

We have an issue. We need to have a co-management group on this species with the Americans. If I were in their place, that's what I would do: If the Canadians are leaving the fish in the water, well, we might as well raise our own access.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

The estimates on the mackerel biomass are based on various egg counts over the years. That's how they come up with their estimate on the mackerel year classes. If scientists didn't find eggs that were existing but not where they were looking, it's possible that we see this bloom in mackerel biomass right now and science is completely blindsided by it.

[Martin Mallet]

I mean, there's certainly an issue between what we're seeing on the ground and what's reported by the science. If you don't have enough indices or data entry points going into your model, you can have the best model in the world, but what will come out of it will be missing a lot of good information.

I'll give you the example of eggs. If you use egg count to estimate the eventual spawning stock biomass of any species, nobody knows, with the changing ecosystem from year to year, how the survival of the eggs will change. We've seen this in lobster, for instance, over the last 20 years. The ecosystem for lobster has been very positive for egg survival but also larval survival to juvenile size.

There are a lot of changes going on in the ecosystem right now that might explain why mackerel are in abundance. They're not necessarily there at the time you're looking for them at the egg level, juvenile level or adult level.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you, Monsieur Mallet.

Mr. Chair, I have a motion I'd like to move, if possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Okay.