Fisheries Committee on Sept. 25th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number four of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

Today and on all days, I do want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people, and by expressing gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands they've stewarded since time immemorial.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Pursuant to the Standing Orders, members may participate in person or on Zoom.

Before we continue, I would like to ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, particularly the interpreters. You will notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

As regards the interpretation, those on Zoom can select the floor, English or French channel at the bottom of their screen. Those in the room can use their earpiece and select the desired channel.

I'll remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

If members in the room wish to speak, they must raise their hand. Members participating on Zoom must use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will do our best to maintain the speaking order.

Thank you for your patience.

With that, I would like to welcome our witnesses.

We have Todd Williams, senior director, fisheries resource management operations.

We welcome, by video conference, the following officials from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans: Maryse Lemire, fisheries management and regional aquaculture regional director, Quebec region, and Jean-Yves Savaria, regional director of science, Quebec region.

With that, we are going to go into our opening remarks, and I will turn it over to Mr. Williams.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Todd Williams, Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Hello. My name is Todd Williams. I'm the senior director of fisheries and resource management at Fisheries and Oceans Canada. I'm joined today by Maryse Lemire, regional director, fisheries management, and Jean-Yves Savaria, regional director of science. Both are from DFO's Quebec region.

We acknowledge that the land on which we gather is the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation. We honour the enduring presence of all first nations, Métis and Inuit peoples on this land and recognize their contributions past and present.

In 2021, Fisheries and Oceans Canada conducted extensive consultations to support the reopening of the unit 1 redfish commercial fishery, which had been under moratorium for more than 25 years. These consultations were designed to be inclusive, transparent and evidence-based, engaging indigenous communities and organizations, industry stakeholders, provincial governments and other partners across Atlantic Canada and Quebec.

The department sought input on the principles and criteria that should guide access and allocation decisions. Stakeholders emphasized the importance of adjacency, historic and socio-economic dependence, equity, and indigenous rights and reconciliation. These principles aligned with long-standing policy frameworks and Canada's commitments under the Fisheries Act and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

The consultation process generated 48 submissions from a wide variety of participants, including indigenous groups, fishing industry associations, individual harvesters, provincial governments and environmental organizations. While views varied, many called for updating the historical allocation key to better reflect today's realities, including the need for dedicated indigenous access and increased opportunities for some other fleets.

The department also heard views from estuary and gulf shrimp harvesters interested in obtaining additional redfish allocation to provide new opportunities in the face of declines in the gulf shrimp fishery. The views shared helped to inform the allocation decision. It's one that aims to balance economic opportunity, conservation and reconciliation objectives.

Establishing an allocation key for a fishery is a complex undertaking. It is not a scientific formula; it's a policy decision that must weigh multiple factors, including stakeholder input, economic considerations, community needs and reconciliation commitments. In the case of unit 1 redfish, the department used the historical allocation key from the pre-moratorium era as a starting point.

However, given the significant changes over the past 25 or more years, including evolving policy frameworks and the importance of indigenous participation, adjustments were necessary. This approach—using historical context while adapting to today's context—was also applied to the reopening of the northern cod fishery.

The allocation decision for unit 1 redfish was announced in January 2024, more than a year and a half ago. Fishing activity began in June 2024, with approximately 5% of the 60,000‑tonne quota landed in the first season. The second year of fishing is currently under way, with just over 4% of the 60,000‑tonne quota landed to date. The season runs until March 31, 2026.

Lobster is one of the few species that appears to benefit from warming waters. Indicators of lobster abundance are increasing across most fishing areas in Quebec. In response, the department has launched a knowledge acquisition and lobster fishery development plan in three underutilized zones across large areas of the province.

This initiative is centred on exploratory fishing, with participants required to carefully document the characteristics of their catches. This cautious, evidence-based approach will help determine whether the stock can sustainably support additional commercial harvesting. It also presents a valuable opportunity for diversification among new licence-holders.

As part of the project, the department issued 74 exploratory fishing licences for areas 17, 18 and 19 that are located in the estuary and the northern Gulf of St. Lawrence. Exploratory fishing began in May 2024 in area 18, and areas 17 and 19 followed in May 2025.

Before implementation, the department conducted extensive consultations with first nations and the fishing industry across the three maritime sectors of the Quebec region. These consultations, along with departmental analysis, informed the distribution of fishing effort and the development of rigorous, objective criteria to select participants in these exploratory fisheries. Those eligible included first nation harvesters, fishers from vulnerable fleets prioritized through industry consultation, and next-generation fish harvesters.

To ensure transparency, the department shared documentation throughout the process, including during licence allocation sessions, which were conducted under strict procedures and in the presence of eligible fishers and witnesses.

Finally, the department has implemented ongoing monitoring measures to support annual decision-making, with the goal of determining whether this additional fishery is viable over the long term.

Thank you for your work on this issue and the time provided to us today.

We would now welcome your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.

With that, we are going to get right into the round of questioning. The first round will be the six-minute round for questioning.

I know that we have a number of new members. The first round will be six minutes for each party. The second round will be five minutes for the Conservatives and Liberals, then we'll have two and a half minutes for the Bloc. After that, we'll have five minutes for the Conservatives and the Liberals, and then that will repeat.

As you're getting close to the end of your time, I may mention something. Once you've reached the end of your time, I will let you know, so you can quickly wrap your question or the answer up.

With that, we are going to start with the Conservatives and Mr. d'Entremont.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

It's hard to figure out exactly what we're talking about today. On one side, we're talking about redfish allocations and fishery in the gulf, and then we're talking about exploratory lobster licences on the other side.

I want to have an idea, when we're looking at the redfish side, of how quotas are set in the gulf at this point for redfish. There are a number of participants in that who may not be adjacent to that stock. I'm just wondering how quotas are set and how we decided that quota is going down. How is that allocation happening?

[Todd Williams]

Following several years of consultation with stakeholders, we looked at a variety of considerations and took into account their views. With respect to the development, we looked at things such as adjacency. We also took into account things like historic dependence. That's why we looked at the original allocation key as a starting point.

As I noted in my remarks, it's not necessarily a science with respect to how the numbers are arrived at. Whether it's 10% for an indigenous quota, or 12% or 8%, it really does vary. Using that as a basis and taking into account those other priorities we've established and the priorities we've heard from stakeholders, that's how the quota sharing is set.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

It concerns me a bit that we would start talking about something that's not science based. The challenges we've had in southwest Nova Scotia to this point have been about trying to put a limit or an idea of what different fisheries are taking out of the ocean. DFO has not done a great job of compiling the data from fishermen, from indigenous fishermen and from other participants in those fisheries.

I want to understand how, in this particular case, the data collection process is structured. How are we going to have confidence in the data we'll be getting out of this?

[Todd Williams]

It's important to first identify the difference between the science-based aspect of this in terms of establishing a total allowable catch and the work that goes into that science, which my colleagues can speak to, as well as the inputs provided by harvesters, whether through at-sea observers or other forms of monitoring, or the work done prior to the commercial fishery by the experimental and indexed fisheries that took place prior to 2024.

How that total allowable catch is then shared comes down to more art than science, and one has to weigh various considerations of those factors I noted earlier: historic dependence, adjacency and other factors.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

Redfish aside and lobster on the other side, we're looking at different zones. Climate change has allowed the lobster to move further north into the bay and into the gulf. We're starting to look at local adjacencies, so we have indigenous fishers and non-indigenous fishers.

In your calculations, what is the population sharing of that? How many indigenous folks are there sharing what kind of total allowable catch of lobster in those zones?

[Todd Williams]

I'll defer that question to Madame Lemire.

[Maryse Lemire, Fisheries Management and Aquaculture Regional Director, Quebec Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you for your question.

The department implemented a knowledge acquisition and lobster fishery development plan in three fishing zones in the estuary and northern Gulf of St. Lawrence. As part of this project, approximately 50% of exploratory fishing licences were granted to first nations and 50% to fishermen who are owner-operators.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

What is the indigenous population in those regions?

[Maryse Lemire]

Unfortunately, I don't have that information on hand. I will have to provide you with a written response.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

The reason I asked that question is that in the southwest, when we looked at the actual sharing of total allowable catches, especially in lobster, we have looked at an indigenous population across Canada somewhere closer to 6%, and the actual licensing that first nations have at this point is somewhere near 13%. The sharing of fifty-fifty seems a little on the high side, but we understand they're exploratory licences and we're seeing who has capacity to actually catch these things. I'm still trying to get to the science or the non-science of sharing the total allowable catch.

What do we think that total allowable catch is going to be in the gulf at this point? Will that sharing work for all participants in that? The sharing we have right now in the southwest and across Nova Scotia does not work for everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

There's time for a short answer.

[Todd Williams]

The quick response is that redfish is different from lobster, so there's an allocation question or how much that impacts, depending on the fishery.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. d'Entremont.

Next we'll be going to Monsieur Cormier for six minutes.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions will focus mainly on redfish fishing.

For my colleagues in attendance and the people watching today, I would like you to give us an overview of all the steps involved in closing and reopening a fishery like the redfish fishery, for example, which was closed for almost 30 years.

What decisions are made before public servants recommend an action plan to the minister? How are the quotas distributed? Do historical shares come into play? Is new access being considered? In short, normally when a fishery is closed, how is that process determined and what steps are involved?

[Todd Williams]

I'll use redfish as a specific example, but I think this applies more broadly to other fisheries that go through this type of moratorium and then reopen.

With redfish, it is what we call a pulse fishery, so it is susceptible to significant ups and downs, if you will.

We closed it around 1994, and then several years later we instituted an index and an experimental fishery. This was to ensure that we had data that we could use, which also ensured some level of access to harvesters to maintain a foothold in industry, and that continued for a number of years. Once we saw that there was enough recruitment in the stock and that it was rebuilding to a healthier biomass, the conversation then shifted to change that from an index and an experimental fishery back to the commercial fishery. We launched consultations, even before getting into numbers, on exactly what would be the most important criteria to consider. Of course, we heard different things from different groups, depending on their perspectives, and we were left with any number of choices.

Again, using the historical allocation key as a basis from which to start, we then looked at other issues. We noticed that the estuary and gulf shrimp harvesters had suffered immensely, possibly and quite directly as a result of the burgeoning redfish, where there is a predation-prey relationship.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Williams, I don't mean to interrupt you, rather I wish to add to your comments.

If I understand correctly, when a fishery is opened, in most cases, the historical shares allocated to the different fleets prior to the closure of that fishery are normally used.

Is that correct?

[Todd Williams]

I think, in general, we use that as a basis, and we saw that with northern cod as well, with some modifications.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Excellent.

With regard to redfish, you said that a new process involving index and experimental fisheries, among others, was adopted, based on the new redfish population, the health of the stock and so on.

Furthermore, you recommended, probably to the minister or various ministers of Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard, the adoption of a new allocation key, based on which the historical shares would be allocated to groups such as indigenous fishermen, shrimp harvesters and other small groups here and there.

Is that correct?

[Todd Williams]

That's correct. We also provided, in terms of the TAC, what we call a reserve allocation on top of that, which would have been, and remains, accessible to anyone who wishes to fish that as well.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

When it comes to the redfish fishery, you recommended then that the minister adopt a new method that could be called “the new emerging fisheries policy” instead of using the historical shares allocated at the time this fishery was closed 30 years ago.

Somehow, you decided that the redfish fishery was a new fishery. That's why the historical shares were dropped in favour of allocating the shares among new fleets, if I can summarize it like that.

Is that correct?

[Todd Williams]

To some degree it is, again, using the historical allocation key as the basis from which we worked.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

All right.

Ultimately, the minister has the final say on the new quotas you proposed, whatever they may be.

Is that correct?