Fisheries Committee on Sept. 25th, 2025

[Maryse Lemire]

In terms of the exploratory fishery development, as I explained earlier, many indicators of lobster presence and abundance gave us the opportunity to proceed directly to the exploratory phase. We also received a lot of information and feedback from the industry.

The exploratory phase will help us check whether the resource can support additional commercial removals in a sustainable manner. We'll need to verify this before we can confirm the long‑term viability of commercial fishing. As with exploratory fishing, exploratory licences are issued for one year only. That way, we can respond to even the slightest negative signals and adjust the plan accordingly to protect the conservation of the resource.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dawson.

Next we are moving to Mr. Cormier for five minutes.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue with my questions about redfish.

We heard earlier that the new emerging fisheries policy was used as a basis for allocating quota percentages to the various fleets.

Can anyone tell me what percentage of the new quota has been allocated to each fleet for redfish?

[Todd Williams]

With the allocation key, we now see the offshore mobile gear with 58.69%, the inshore mobile gear fleet with 14.84%, midshore with 5.72% and inshore fixed gear, which primarily use it for bycatch, at 0.75%. Then we have estuary Gulf of St. Lawrence shrimp harvesters at 10% and indigenous communities and organizations, also at 10%, if they have mobile gear and a groundfish licence.

In terms of where it was reallocated, all of the reallocation essentially came from the offshore component for the shrimp and indigenous organizations.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Foreign fleets obtained almost 60% of the quota.

The fishery is now reopening. When it was closed 30 years ago, offshore companies still managed to slip through. However, unfortunately, other fleets were unable to turn to other fisheries. For example, shrimpers have been struggling lately. The redfish species feeds heavily on shrimp. It could be blamed for the decline in shrimp stocks, but I don't think that it's the only cause.

The decision was made to opt for a new redistribution of quotas, instead of allocating historical shares. An attempt was made to distribute quotas to other fleets that needed them, such as shrimpers.

Instead of assigning quotas of 10%, could a decision have been made to set them at 15%, 20% or 25%? If so, who could have made that decision?

[Todd Williams]

In terms of establishing the new allocation key, decisions were made by which to strike some level of fairness. We do know that in the offshore sector, those harvesters continued to have those licences and make business decisions based on those. Even though there was a moratorium, there was intrinsic value in those licences. We do know that others in the inshore, for example, with groundfish licences, avail themselves to other species.

In terms of the shrimp harvesters, it was deemed that this would be an appropriate amount of quota in addition to the fact that we do have a reserve allocation that is available to anyone. Perhaps a final point to add for the committee's consideration is that the choke point here really isn't the allocation key. Harvesters are not catching more than 10% of their allocations. It's really a market issue.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Williams.

A fishery that had been closed for 30 years has just been reopened. An allocation of almost 60% has just been given to offshore vessels, meaning large boats often over 100 feet long.

In your opinion, what could explain the decline in redfish stocks over the past 30 years? Any of the witnesses may answer.

[Todd Williams]

As I noted earlier, redfish is what we consider a pulse fishery and is subject to significant increases and decreases over time. I should also add that while the allocation has been provided to those offshore vessels, to date no vessel over 100 feet has caught fish in unit 1.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I understand that no vessels longer than 100 feet are there.

However, do you think that, if these vessels have access to the Gulf of St. Lawrence, the risk would still remain and we would have another moratorium on redfish? Couldn't we instead give these allocations to fleets experiencing greater difficulties in order to help them and ensure sustainable fishing for years to come?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

We have time for a short response.

[Todd Williams]

What we have now is a whole suite of management measures that all fleets have to abide by, whether that's new seasonal closures, area closures, at-sea observers and the like.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

That finishes our second round. We're going to move on to the third round, starting with Mr. Arnold for five minutes.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today.

Mr. Williams, you described how TAC, or total allowable catch, is allocated. Then you said that how TAC is allocated is more of an art than a scientific process.

Can you describe how that art works? Is it more of a political process?

Finally, how is that made transparent, so that Canadians can know how that process is played out?

[Todd Williams]

I think the point earlier with my comment was that it's not necessarily a hard science in terms of what my colleagues do when establishing a total allowable catch. The science, if anything, is a social science. It's a policy question in which various considerations have to be taken into account.

In that respect, there are a number of things we did to ensure that we had some level of transparency. This was a wide-ranging consultation that took over two years. We produced “What we heard” documents in terms of the information that we collected. We heard from almost every group in terms of what they wished to be their share. Simply, it wouldn't work mathematically if we were to say yes to everything. In terms of where we landed, we tried to balance all of those considerations. That's the allocation key that we have.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Could you provide in writing to the committee the “what you heard” documents and the transparency that you say there is behind the decisions in these allocations? Thank you.

Has the policy or the art of the allocation of the TAC changed in recent years? If so, why?

[Todd Williams]

I think there are new considerations that simply weren't present perhaps 20 or 25 years ago, namely our focus on indigenous reconciliation and rights-based fishing and our incorporation of that into allocation keys. We simply didn't see that when this fishery existed previously. As well, there was a desire to really assist those harvesters in other fisheries who could have access here, such as the shrimp harvesters in the gulf.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Thank you.

Is all catch in these fisheries reported and recorded from all harvesters? Could you provide in writing to the committee the process that the DFO is using to collect catch data for redfish and the experimental lobster fishery?

[Todd Williams]

Yes, absolutely we can. We can even show the evolution of those measures over time.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Is all catch reported and recorded?

[Todd Williams]

Yes.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Okay.

Can you also provide in writing to the committee the scientific data that the DFO based its decision on with regard to opening the experimental lobster fishery, as well as any reasoning around the allocation of that fishery?

[Todd Williams]

I'll turn to Madame Lemire to answer that question.

[Maryse Lemire]

Thank you for your question.

As I said earlier, the latest stock assessment shows that the resource is in good health. We also received a number of observations and reports from fishers stating that lobsters were present and that they could be seen at low tide.

These are pieces of information—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Thank you. I just ask for that information to be provided.

I'd like to go back to Mr. Williams again.

Please describe to the committee here the art that you talked about.

[Todd Williams]

It's, again, perhaps mislabelled as social science in terms of weighing those considerations.

Again, we looked at, as a base, the historical allocation key, recognizing the importance of stability in allocations across all fisheries. At the same time, we considered the inputs that we received from harvesters and the fact that we knew that we couldn't make the math work in terms of providing each group, each fleet, with the amount requested. Therefore, it was a balancing act through which we arrived at the new allocation key.