Evidence of meeting #8 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Chair.
My first question will be for Mr. Campbell.
I would like, Mr. Campbell, to take it back to.... You referenced subsection 19(1) of the regulations and that the wording around that could cause problems for inshore fishers. Before I get you to respond, could you give an opinion?
Do most of the inshore owner-operator fishers arrange their affairs in a corporate structure similar to one you articulated?
Counsel, Cox and Palmer
For the past five years, I've incorporated all fishers. Whether they be existing independent core fishers or new entrants, they would be incorporated. We are seeing more and more of them as senior fishers pass away or due to succession planning. These are the corporate structures that they are utilizing in order to do that succession planning for the next generation.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
If this ability to structure their affairs in this manner was questioned or removed, would that impact the transition or movement of licensing from father to son or to family members or others in the community?
Counsel, Cox and Palmer
The amendment that I requested allows for the smoother flow of the licences from father to son, from mother to son, from brother to brother or amongst siblings in the family. It would allow a smoother transition and avoid conflict between the Income Tax Act and the Fisheries Act.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
What are the issues surrounding this if ambiguity is left in this act that could be contradicted in the Income Tax Act?
Counsel, Cox and Palmer
The proposed amendments would avoid that ambiguity and those conflicts that are often caused between the Income Tax Act and the Fisheries Act and the regulations. It makes for a smoother transition.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Could you expand a bit on what you referenced in the section? With regard to the way that DFO is interpreting this section, you indicated that there have been numerous interpretation bulletins from DFO that constantly change. Could you expand a bit on what issues that creates for the inshore fishers, the owner-operators, who may wish to structure their fishing operations in this manner?
Counsel, Cox and Palmer
Probably 25 years ago, there was a lot of confrontation or conflict between the Income Tax Act, the Fisheries Act and the incorporations of companies. That was amended by amending the legislation to allow wholly owned corporations. Today, what is proposed is the inshore family fishing corporations, which would allow families to better structure their affairs and avoid many of the income tax ramifications that are imposed by the CRA, such as bare trusts, declarations of trust and things like that. The proposed amendments would avoid that ambiguity and allow for the distribution of the beneficial interests from the net proceeds of the fishing licences to family members, as defined in the Income Tax Act.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
If a new entry to the fishery could not arrange their affairs in this manner, would it impede their ability to get financing through commercial entities?
Counsel, Cox and Palmer
Most of them who we deal with are incorporated and they are able to seek financing through the local credit union through the structure we use, but it all comes down to the independent core fisher.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Okay, but if they didn't have the ability to structure in the corporate manner that is now common practice with maybe some ambiguity as it comes to CRA legislation, will that negatively impact their ability to get financing?
Counsel, Cox and Palmer
Yes, it would negatively impact their ability to get financing.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
One of the tenets of the act is the protection of the owner-operator, which was a protection long sought after by inshore fishers. Does anything you're proposing take away or undermine the principle of the owner-operator?
Counsel, Cox and Palmer
No. It's all within the legislative amendments. There's nothing that affects the owner-operator or independent core fisher or new entrant.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Just to sum up, the simple amendment you're recommending would remove the possibility, in future years, of there being some question that would negatively financially impact the inshore fisher if this legislation did not clarify this particular point. Am I interpreting you correctly?
Counsel, Cox and Palmer
It would negatively impact the fisher, the fisher's ability for succession planning and the fisher's ability to obtain financing.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Mr. Campbell.
That is my question on that, so I'm fine, Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Morrissey.
Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
My questions are first for Mr. Déraspe, who is with us by video conference from the Îles de la Madeleine.
Good morning, Mr. Déraspe.
In your presentation, you talked about the issue of uniform application of the act. You mentioned a number of examples, and I'd like to hear more about them.
First, you say that the cost of a lobster fishing licence differs depending on whether you're a lobster fisher in Gaspésie or a lobster fisher in the Îles de la Madeleine.
How much is the difference?
Vice President, Rassemblement des pêcheurs et pêcheuses des côtes des Îles
Where I'm from, we pay a little over $800, while in Gaspésie, the cost is less than $300. There were years in the past when catches in Gaspésie were much lower than those in the Îles de la Madeleine, so we agreed to pay a little more or to let fishers in Gaspésie pay a little less.
Today, we know that the price of lobster has gone up a lot, and we think the cost of the licence should be standardized. We wouldn't want to increase the cost in Gaspésie, but rather adjust ours.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
I suspected that's what it was.
As far as the logbook is concerned, you say that the obligation to have a logbook is part of regulations that apply to fishers in the Îles de la Madeleine, but not to those in other areas.
Is that correct?
Vice President, Rassemblement des pêcheurs et pêcheuses des côtes des Îles
We discussed it at length a few years ago. That was when the Rassemblement was formed. For us, it's an obligation. We checked with the other provinces on this, and we confirmed that the obligation applied only to people from the islands.
Today we've kind of accepted that, but it's still not consistent across Canada. We really wonder whether the regulations put in place by Fisheries and Oceans Canada are fair for everyone.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
So Îles de la Madeleine fishers are required to use a logbook, but not their neighbours in the Maritimes.
Why is that a problem?
Vice President, Rassemblement des pêcheurs et pêcheuses des côtes des Îles
When you're at sea, the weather isn't usually very nice. Waves rush into the cabin, soaking everything. As a result, fishers don't have time to pick up a pen and paper and keep a log. They're more concerned with fishing and catching lobsters than paperwork.
In addition, this obligation must be met before arriving at the dock and weighing the catch. The time between the end of fishing and arrival at the dock is sometimes very short. When you're battling the elements, it's really not easy.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
In your opinion, the fact that other fishers in the Maritimes don't have to fill out a logbook is unfair. Why?