Evidence of meeting #11 for Subcommittee on Food Safety in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was food.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Thomas Olson  Chairman, Bison Producers of Alberta
James M. Laws  Executive Director, Canadian Meat Council
Peter Stein  Director, Quality Assurance and Food Safety, Piller Sausages and Delicatessens Ltd.
Martin Rice  Executive Director, Canadian Pork Council
Dawn Lawrence  Canadian Quality Assurance (CQA) Program Coordinator, Canadian Pork Council
Jennifer MacTavish  Executive Director, Canadian Sheep Federation
Terry Pugh  Executive Secretary, National Farmers Union
David Hutton  Executive Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)

5:55 p.m.

Director, Quality Assurance and Food Safety, Piller Sausages and Delicatessens Ltd.

Peter Stein

No, because I think the onus was put on the industry, and the industry asked for it. It's the same thing with HACCP. When HACCP came in, it was something the industry wanted. But you have to test in the right places and you need to know what to look for. I think many of us in the industry have learned a lot in the last year as to where to look and where to find it, and what the impacts are. Where we were traditionally looking before was not good enough.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay, I think we probably have about a minute left.

What other new technologies are coming forward? You've told us about one that you're using that's fairly expensive. Mr. Bellavance talked to you about that. But what kinds of new technologies are out there that look like they're going to be really useful for you folks?

5:55 p.m.

Director, Quality Assurance and Food Safety, Piller Sausages and Delicatessens Ltd.

Peter Stein

There are a number of interventions that can be used, which the U.S. is taking advantage of and is using in their facilities as ingredients—all the way from irradiation to different types of additives. They've been on the table for many years at the Canadian Meat Council, since I've been on the council and its technical committee. And I just—

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

What would you recommend? We have to make some recommendations.

What would you recommend if you had your choice?

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Be very brief.

5:55 p.m.

Director, Quality Assurance and Food Safety, Piller Sausages and Delicatessens Ltd.

Peter Stein

Well, I think irradiation is something we need to look at. Absolutely.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thanks very much to everybody for keeping to the time.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here. I think we had some great questions and, certainly, some great answers that will help us here.

Mr. Rice.

5:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Pork Council

Martin Rice

Really quickly, I'm wondering if it's of any use to the committee to look at the concept of equivalence that is used in the international—

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Concept of what?

5:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Pork Council

Martin Rice

Equivalence is a concept in the WTO codes on sanitary and phytosanitary barriers, providing a way for countries to deal with each other and not require each other to have identical systems, but system results that are equivalent.

I don't know if that is a concept that can be brought into this federal versus provincial inspection realm or not.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Well, I think the members of the committee would like to hear about anything and everything, Mr. Rice, for their report. So if you have some information you think would be useful to us, we would probably be more than happy to receive it. Okay?

5:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Pork Council

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thanks, again.

We're going to recess for a maximum of 10 minutes, and then get into our next segment.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I would like to welcome our witnesses here.

First of all, we have Mr. Hutton from the Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform, better known as FAIR, with us live. And by video we have Mr. Terry Pugh, executive secretary of the National Farmers Union.

Welcome, gentlemen. Thank you very much for participating.

Mr. Pugh, I'm going to turn it over to you for 10 minute or less.

6:05 p.m.

Terry Pugh Executive Secretary, National Farmers Union

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My name is Terry Pugh. I'm the executive secretary of the National Farmers Union, based out of Saskatoon. I want to thank you very much for the opportunity to participate here.

A lot of our elected officials are still out seeding, unfortunately. I apologize for not having a written presentation in French. There will be a document. It has been circulated to the clerk and you will get that in a few days.

The NFU welcomes this opportunity to present its views on the issue of food safety to this committee. The NFU is a non-partisan nationwide democratic organization made up of thousands of farm families from across Canada, who produce a wide variety of commodities. Our mandate is to work for policies designed to raise net farm incomes from the marketplace and promote a food system that is built on a foundation of financially viable family farms that produce high-quality, healthy, safe food. We encourage environmentally sensitive practices that protect our precious soil, water, and other natural resources, and we promote social and economic justice for food producers and all citizens.

As family farmers, of course we are committed to a food system that provides safe and healthy food to people in this country and abroad. Food production is more than a business to us. We strive to ensure that the agronomic practices we use are safe and sustainable, and we welcome regulations that are designed to assist us in achieving those objectives. In fact, the vast majority of our members voluntarily exceed regulatory expectations in their efforts to produce safe food. Farmers are prepared, of course, to accept a reasonable cost, but it's important to ensure that costs are not unfairly downloaded to farmers. Food safety costs should be fairly shared by government and private industry as food safety and health is a social concern.

Farmers, of course, are one link in the food chain. Products of our labour and our land are destined to pass through many hands before they end up on consumers' dinner tables. The potential for problems, therefore, in the food system increases with each step along that journey. The trend toward large-scale highly centralized processing and distribution of foodstuffs over long distances has accelerated the probability that when food-borne contamination is not detected at its source, the results are disastrous and widespread. Of course, the tragic listeriosis outbreak, which occurred in 2008 as a result of unsafe processing facilities at the Maple Leaf plant in Toronto, profoundly shook the trust Canadians had, until that time, in their food system.

The NFU is a strong advocate of regulatory measures that put protection of the public at the top of the priority list. The NFU is strongly opposed to self-policing by food processing companies. Our policy, which is fairly long-standing, says food must be adequately tested, regulated, and inspected. These critical tasks must be performed by a sufficient number of adequately funded, independent, publicly paid inspectors.

At the most recent NFU national convention, which was held last November, a resolution was passed that called on the NFU to lobby the federal Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food and the CFIA, requesting first that plant inspection and testing be carried out by qualified CFIA inspectors and that the original number of paid government inspectors at meat packing and processing plants be also reinstated.

The Canadian public, of course, does not want industry to police itself. The poll conducted recently by Nanos, which was released on May 20, showed that 70% of Canadians believe Ottawa should invest more resources and be more hands-on in policing the safety of food. I think this tells us Canadians believe that the CFIA, in fact, should be the agency responsible for ensuring food safety and that the Government of Canada is where the buck stops. It's not necessarily the industry. We acknowledge the fact that the industry did take steps to move on the contamination when it was discovered. But really the buck doesn't stop with industry; it stops with the regulator.

The collapse, of course, of the financial system showed what the consequences of deregulation are. The financial system collapse, of course, devastated the economies of most of the world and destroyed the faith of many people in the so-called benefits of the free market and deregulation.

So the listeriosis tragedy fundamentally shattered the notion that food processing companies will always put the interests of their customers ahead of their bottom line. The process of deregulating Canada's food inspection and moving to a system of self-policing by food processing companies has clearly placed consumers at risk. Over the years there has been a gradual handing off of food safety oversight to the processing companies themselves, and the role and authority of the inspectors employed by the CFIA have been reduced dramatically. The testimony by Bob Kingston, I think, pointed that out very well.

The CFIA has had its budget cut over the years, and public food inspectors have seen their workload increase. Last year we saw the move to deregulate provincial meat inspection at slaughterhouses in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and B.C. Before 2008, of course, federally registered meat establishments were required to comply with an annual mandatory full systems audit conducted by the CFIA. However, we've seen that a shortage of inspectors at the CFIA qualified to conduct these audits meant that this did not happen as often as required.

The Harper government further changed that in April 2008 by moving to the compliance verification system. As we heard from Bob Kingston's testimony, the compliance verification system itself would work in theory, but we do need resources behind that at the CFIA in order to make that actually happen properly. What has happened, of course, is that the compliance verification system has shifted the CFIA inspector's role increasingly off the plant floor and toward auditing paperwork. The Maple Leaf plant was not subject to a full systems audit for at least a year prior to the outbreak. I think that does speak to the importance of these audits.

We have over 800 federally inspected meat plants across Canada and only 1,100 fully qualified processed food inspectors and 230 meat hygiene vets currently on staff. So CFIA inspectors are stretched to the point where it's impossible for them to adequately monitor the facilities that they're responsible for. We've heard before that the inspector at that plant in Toronto was responsible for seven facilities at the time of the outbreak. This really points out that there are problems in trying to ensure that the system actually works as planned, or as it's supposed to. The union has shown that the staffing levels are well below the minimum levels required to properly conduct those meat inspections. There is, in fact, a critical shortage of those inspectors.

I think it would be a grave error to continue with the policy of industry self-policing. The reality is that it's necessary to increase the staffing levels and authority of CFIA inspectors to ensure compliance by private companies with those safety rules. In order to verify that companies like Maple Leaf are not cutting corners at the expense of Canadian consumers, the CFIA does need inspectors on the plant floor doing visual inspections of conditions that may lead to contamination and physically confirming that all the safety protocols and requirements are being respected. Under the current system of simply having CFIA inspectors rely on documents, that tells them, of course, that the company knows how to complete paperwork, but it doesn't really do an adequate job.

We've seen this process of deregulation also pop up in other areas that directly affect farmers. For example, in the Canadian Grain Commission we've seen grain inspections being shifted over to the private sector. We've seen the gradual cutbacks at the Canadian Grain Commission. We've actually seen the same process happen with the CFIA, where every year the amount of money that's set aside for the Canadian Grain Commission to properly inspect is always cut back, just like it is at the CFIA. That directly impacts on farmers, because it increases the potential liability for those farmers if there is contamination of grain in the bulk handling system.

We've also seen, just recently, that situation...the CGC, of course, is aggravated by another recent move to further reduce farmers' access to on-site inspection services. Earlier this spring it was announced that the CGC service centres in Brandon, Moose Jaw, and Melville, which all offered on-site inspections, will be closed. So this is a very important aspect of the food system as well.

We've also seen changes to the seed variety registration system that give increased decision-making power to seed and chemical companies, which basically control the genes that are going into many of the genetically modified seed varieties that are coming on the market. The system would allow them to put those varieties into the market a lot faster, without the same sort of testing and the same sort of insurance that the seed varieties would be equal to or better than existing varieties that are out there.

In conclusion, we really believe that the deregulation of the food inspection system jeopardizes the health and safety of consumers in Canada and abroad. We recommend the recommendations put forward by the food safety first campaign to hire additional inspectors, to put in a moratorium on industry self-policing policies, and to remove the obstacles preventing CFIA inspectors and veterinarians from taking immediate action on shop floors when they see violations at the processing plants. And we really think we should restore the system of public audit reports that was cancelled under pressure from the meat industry.

Thank you very much for that.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Hutton, for 10 minutes or less, please.

6:15 p.m.

David Hutton Executive Director, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform (FAIR)

I'd like to thank the committee for the opportunity to give testimony.

I represent FAIR, which stands for the Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform. FAIR is Canada's first public interest organization created to protect whistle-blowers, by which I mean employees who speak out to protect the public interest when they see wrongdoing. FAIR has been doing valuable work in this field for the past 11 years.

I'm going to cover two closely related topics in my remarks. The first is that I want to comment on the nature of the management systems upon which the industry and, ultimately, the public are increasingly dependent for ensuring food safety. I'll also comment on the vital role that whistle-blowers play in protecting the public when these systems fail and on the challenge of protecting these people.

I'll start with the food industry. As we have heard in this testimony over the past several weeks, the food industry is changing rapidly, from a host of modest family farms to a few industrialized producers operating on a huge scale. Just like transporting people in ever larger passenger planes, this creates economies of scale. It's very efficient while it works, but when it goes wrong, the result can be catastrophic, with many lives lost.

We've also heard a great deal about management systems being implemented in industry as a safeguard. I want to comment on that, because before I took on my current role, I spent my career in industry as an executive and a management consultant working in management systems. I've been working in this field since the mid-eighties, which is before the food industry began to become interested in this subject.

I've written a couple of books on the subject that have been translated and distributed on four continents, so I feel comfortable in making some observations about management systems. I'd like to tell you that obviously without these systems and the techniques they embody, it would not be possible today to build a reliable automobile or to safeguard the blood supply or to launch man into space. It's no accident that HACCP, which we've heard so much about, had its origins in NASA.

As our food system evolves into a vast industrial complex, it won't be possible to have a safe food supply without very expert and diligent implementation of these systems. However, these systems, as effective as they are when they are working well, are fragile. This is a key point, because they require considerable expertise to implement and absolutely consistent support from management, from the CEO right down.

The moment that the technical expertise is compromised or the management support weakens, then the system begins to degrade and will likely soon fail. All it takes for our food supply, then, to be poisoned is for one company in financial difficulty to start cutting corners, or for one manager, perhaps on a night shift somewhere, to overlook a problem rather than stopping the production line to fix it. We're only one bad actor or one incompetent decision-maker away from a catastrophe.

This is not an empty claim. The U.S.A. recently suffered a devastating salmonella outbreak, one of many outbreaks they've had. This particular one sickened an estimated 19,000 people in 43 states. It contributed to nine deaths and triggered the largest food recall in U.S. history and, indeed, an international food recall. All of this was caused by one family-owned peanut plant in Georgia. That's right.

About half of those who fell ill were children, so you begin to see how vulnerable we are. That's why it's absolutely essential, in my opinion, that we have mechanisms in place to inform us when things are going wrong, before disaster strikes.

I'll turn to whistle-blower legislation. The typical whistle-blower is not someone who rushes off on some kind of crusade or to find problems and publicize them. They are typically ordinary employees doing their jobs conscientiously who find themselves in a situation where they see some wrongdoing going on or have come into possession of some information that is embarrassing to their employer or their bosses. Then they put themselves at risk by trying to bring that to management's attention.

The whistle-blower is someone who puts his or her career at risk in trying to protect us. It's not someone who is acting irresponsibly. I think it's just plain common sense that if everyone in the food industry—in government and the private sector—could speak out freely if they saw matters of concern, then we'd be a lot safer than we are today. There is compelling statistical evidence from other sectors suggesting that whistle-blowing is potentially the most effective way we have for exposing problems and wrongdoing.

Some of you might be thinking, well, shouldn't people come forward anyway? Why do they need protection? But I'd like to emphasize that the typical experience of someone who tries to draw attention to concerns their bosses don't want to hear about is that they suffer vicious and calculated reprisals--attempts to isolate them, to make their colleagues frightened to speak to them, and to humiliate them. This abuse and bullying typically goes on until the employee can't take it anymore. At some point their doctor will say to them, “You can't go to work any more because it's killing you.” At that point, the organization has succeeded in ridding them from the workplace and silencing them.

It goes further than that, because employers will very often make every attempt to prevent the whistle-blower from being employable. So they not only lose their immediate job, but also their career. One U.S. expert remarked that the typical fate of a nuclear engineer who blows the whistle is to end up selling computers at RadioShack—and that's certainly my observation too.

The consequences for these people and their families are enormous: loss of livelihood, loss of their careers, loss of their homes, and very often the loss of their families. And they typically end up with post-traumatic stress symptoms, including nightmares, flashbacks, chronic depression—and regrettably, some are driven to commit suicide.

You might think this type of behaviour would be expected from a firm whose profits are threatened, but surely not from government employers. As Canadians, we've been raised to trust our government, but you'd be entirely wrong to do that. I want to give you just one or two examples.

The founder of this organization, FAIR, is Joanna Gualtieri, who blew the whistle on waste and extravagance in Foreign Affairs in the early nineties and was harassed out of her job. She sued her bosses for harassment, and that lawsuit is now in its eleventh year. You could ask, how could it possibly take so long? Well, government lawyers, paid by us, have dreamed up more than 10,500 questions to put to her and have subjected her to more than 30 days of pretrial examination, when the norm is one day.

This is not an unusual example. You've also heard of Shiv Chopra and the Health Canada whistle-blowers who lost their jobs after testifying to the Senate. The Senate was unable to protect them, and they've had to take legal action to try to regain their jobs. Their hearings have been going on for close to five years now.

In Canada, we're latecomers to whistle-blower protection. The Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act came into force in 2007, and it was claimed to offer ironclad protection to whistle-blowers and to be the Mount Everest of whistle-blower legislation around the world. Unfortunately, those claims seem quite ridiculous today. We have a Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, who is an agent of Parliament, with a substantial staff and a budget of $6.5 million, and after two years of operation her office has not found a single example of wrongdoing in the entire federal public service. So our view is that whistle-blowers in Canada are not in any way protected, and there's not even the pretence of protection for them in the private sector.

I'm going to leave you with one very simple message, which is based on two decades of experience I've had with management systems and from what I've learned about whistle-blowing in the past five years or so. If you don't remember anything else, then please remember this. In my opinion, unless we create effective whistle-blower protection for the people working in the food industry, from the public servants who make policy and oversee the industry to the managers and workers on the production lines, Canadians will continue to die needlessly because of avoidable failures within the food supply.

I'm not claiming this is a comprehensive solution. Obviously there are many things that have to be done. But I'm saying it's a very important component that can provide a safety net when everything else goes wrong.

Thank you.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much, Mr. Hutton.

We now move to questioning. Mr. Easter, seven minutes.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Hutton, and Terry from Saskatoon.

I like the background behind you there, Terry. It's much better than the one the minister carries around with him.

6:25 p.m.

Executive Secretary, National Farmers Union

Terry Pugh

Thanks. Do you mean the Canadian flag?

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

No, there's no Canadian flag there.

Anyway, Terry, my first question is to you. You did go to the issue of responsibility. One of the things that shocked me about the president of the CFIA, in her presentation before the committee, was that she basically said CFIA was not responsible for food safety, that it is the responsibility of the industry. What's your view on that, and who should be responsible?

6:25 p.m.

Executive Secretary, National Farmers Union

Terry Pugh

I think clearly the government and CFIA are the ones that are responsible. When you say that industry is ultimately responsible, then you're placing the onus for all the regulations, for basically setting the rules, on industry and saying that the government is the regulator, and that basically lets them off the hook. It's important that they are the regulator, but it's also the role, I think, of the government and Parliament to put those rules in place to protect the public interest. The public interest has to be first and foremost here. If you have industry setting all of the rules, then clearly the public interest won't have the ultimate priority. It will perhaps be on an equal footing with the profit motive, but it will not be out there by itself.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Clearly, in your presentation you did say that you're strongly opposed to the self-policing that seems to be happening in the system. Since the listeriosis issue, where the inspector was responsible for seven plants in Toronto, I think he's now responsible for basically one. So there is an improvement there.

Am I correct that your opinion is that the inspectors should be from an independent third party, preferably government, and that they should be on the plant floor?

I'll ask Mr. Hutton for his view on that, as well.

6:30 p.m.

Executive Secretary, National Farmers Union

Terry Pugh

I'll start first.

Yes, absolutely, it should be an independent third party. Of course, the difficulty with CFIA is that it has a dual mandate in which it's not only responsible for ensuring the safety of the food system but it is also responsible for helping promote exports and so on to other countries. It's charged not only with facilitating the industry's success but also with safeguarding public interest.

It's a very fine line, I think, when you're trying to balance those two. Which one gets priority when it comes to the crunch here? If you have an agency whose primary role is ensuring that the public interest is protected, then I think it's very clear where that priority lies. Having inspectors on the shop floor...I think what we've seen with that plant in Toronto where they said, “Yes, we've made a mistake, now we'll get back to a reasonable workload for that particular inspector”, shows that the system of trying to stretch those people beyond what's reasonable simply doesn't work.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

The same question, to you both--and maybe you could answer at the same time, Mr. Hutton--is about the imported product, not only in terms of our own internal domestic food safety systems, but how we should be handling product that's imported into this country. What should the rules be under that, as compared with what both Canadian farmers and Canadian industry have to abide by?