Subcommittee on Food Safety Committee on April 29th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Does that answer your question?

As many members can sit at the table as they like. When it comes to the vote, it's only those who are sworn in who can vote.

We'll now move to Mr. Bellavance for seven minutes.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for your testimony. I will begin with you, Ms. Lammens.

First, it is clear that, in my capacity as Bloc Québecois critic for agriculture, I have had many discussions with fruit and vegetable growers in Quebec. I have travelled with the committee to other parts of Canada, and I have also spoken with members of Canadian associations as well. I would like to know whether, in Ontario, you are also experiencing some of the same problems as our producers in so far as the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is concerned.

In fact, two issues come up regularly. The first concerns the number of inspectors available for the inspection of food exports. Of course, most of our exports are sent to the United States. I imagine that in Ontario, many of the producers who are members of your association export their products. But before products can be exported, they have to be inspected by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, which is as it should be. However, the lack of inspectors often leads producers to lose contracts. If an inspection cannot be carried out in a timely manner, it is quite possible that a buyer will decide to purchase his products elsewhere. This is especially true for food products, because they can go bad quickly.

Every time we've asked the Agency, the minister or government officials about this, we were told that there are enough inspectors. They say they are always hiring, except that when we speak to the producers directly, they report that they don't see inspectors come around anymore. It's become even more difficult to ensure that inspections are carried out in time. So we have to speak out, as we did during the 2008 holiday season. No inspector was available to inspect a significant number of shipments. MPs had to speak out before the shipments were ultimately inspected.

I'm telling you this so you can tell me how it's done at your end. Do you encounter this type of problem?

[Brenda Lammens]

Yes, there have been concerns about the role of CFIA. The technical review that has to take place for the certification of our on-farm food safety programs has been delayed many times. There are five categories. Four have finally passed. It has taken many months. I don't want to say “many years”, but it seems like it has been a long time. And we're still waiting—I think in June—to go through the final category for review, so we've lost a full year pretty well of that program as far as it being fully certified.

With regard to exporting and inspection at the border, there have been issues. The perishability of the products that we produce is a huge issue, because we can lose that quality if it's sitting at the border waiting to be inspected.

I'm not really versed well enough in the issues. I personally have not heard too much. At the national level, the Canadian Horticultural Council, which I believe will be presenting to you at a later time, works more closely with CFIA because it is a national program. They probably will be able to give you more information with regard to issues at the border. I know there are issues. I have heard it from producers, but to personally speak to that issue, I don't feel I am well enough versed to do that. But it is a concern.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I often hear about another problem. Ms. Coady also mentioned it earlier, and you gave a brief overview of the issue. It has to do with products coming from abroad.

For a long time now, we have been making representations to all governments. I was elected in 2004, and at that time, the Liberals were in power, whereas now, the Conservatives are in power. This is a recurring problem that we hear about again and again. Sometimes we feel—and producers are under this impression—that we do not necessarily carry out the same kind of inspections for imported products as we do for domestic products.

I can name a number of products, pesticides and others, that are banned in Canada but not in the United States, China, India and other countries. These products manage to make their way onto our markets and compete with our products. Consumers are increasingly aware of this and, fortunately, they no longer feel that they have to choose the best-looking apple the best-looking tomato. It is as if we were creating visually attractive food products, whereas in the past, when my grandparents had a farm, the carrots that came from the garden were sometimes funny looking, but they were much better than many of the carrots we find on our tables today. I am talking about imported carrots, because our local carrots are still very, very good.

While appearance might be a consideration, nonetheless, consumers seem to be much more aware now and they want to buy local products. However, the government is also responsible for such matters and it must see to it that when products are imported from abroad, they meet our local standards.

Some officials once laughed at me because I asked why we are not doing on-site inspections to see how people go about growing their fruits and vegetables. Perhaps they thought that I just wanted an opportunity to travel, but I do not think my question was outlandish. The Japanese, for instance, come to our slaughterhouses to verify how we prepare the meat because they want to know what they are buying, how the product is made, how it grows, what additives it may contain, and so forth. The government has an important responsibility here.

I would like to know whether you think it is important for us to meet each others' standards and whether the problems you encounter are the same as the ones that are regularly being brought to my attention.

[Brenda Lammens]

Imported products are always of concern to us, because they are our competitors. When we ask the retailer why they purchase product that we don't feel has met the same food safety standards that we have been expected to comply with, there's not a lot of communication. In fact the retailers I think sometimes have positioned themselves as being above reproach.

With regard to how we handle something like this and whether we go to other countries, I have travelled to other countries, and I have sat down with exporters and talked about the type of on-farm food safety programs they have, and it seems that people in other countries are attempting to develop programs. But we still feel that possibly--and I don't mean to be finger-pointing--a country like China maybe is not competing on the same level as we are with food safety, yet they are probably one of our biggest competitors with regard to many of the fresh fruits and vegetables. It is a concern, and we certainly would appreciate the government possibly having higher expectations of the retailers here to put more emphasis on food safety and have the same expectations.

The local consumer is very anxious to buy local. I cannot believe the response we have right now. People want to know where their food is coming from. They're asking the questions. We're trying to educate the consumer to ask the retailer where food has come from, and we want to buy local. It seems that it's working, although we still have a long way to go. But when the supply is low, it seems as though all standards fall off the shelf. When they can't get a certain amount of product in the retailers, it doesn't matter what food safety plan is being used; they want the product on the shelf. So the standards are kind of based on supply and demand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lammens.

We now move to Mr. Allen, for seven minutes.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming on short notice. We greatly appreciate it.

I was interested in Ms. Lammens' take on cutting asparagus, because I know we don't pick asparagus, we cut it.

[Brenda Lammens]

It's growing as we speak.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Yes, indeed it is. It actually was the very first job I ever had as a youngster, cutting asparagus, so that's why I know we don't pick it, we cut it. That was up by Collingwood, just outside Nottawa, which a lot of folks don't know about, up in Nottawasaga.

But let me get back to where you just finished, when you were talking about the standards seeming to evaporate for the retailer when they see the product diminishing on the shelves, in the sense that they need to have something there to fill that shelf to ensure that consumers coming through their doors can avail themselves of the product.

If consumers knew that it was substandard--and that's my word--from the perspective of what we're asking you and other farmers to do at the farm, to come to a certain level of standard, then to simply put product on the shelf.... It seems to me that's something we ought to be telling folks. Or at the very least, perhaps we should have a standard that's identical, and if we're not able to ensure it at the farm gate, perhaps we can ensure it when it reaches our border, before it comes in.

I wonder what your thoughts are around that. I'm a great believer in locally grown produce, and I'm a great believer in markets. And by that I mean the farm market and the farm gate, where I actually buy most of my produce in the growing season. I live rurally and I'm fortunate to have four markets in my area wheret I can go on different nights, which is fabulous for me and fabulous for those farmers, who enjoy retailing their product at that point.

So that sense of standard is really what I'm looking at--how our farmers, through your association, view that. Do they see it as being part of the process, or is it unfair, are they annoyed? How do they feel about it?

[Brenda Lammens]

They are annoyed and they do feel it's unfair. Yes, we certainly would like to see standardization. If we're going to all be selling in the same marketplace, let's have a level playing field. We've been saying that for many years.

We don't want to beat the retailers up too much, because they are the people who buy our product. We need them. But we need to be working together and communicating more on what they're putting on their shelves and we need their support with what we're doing.

So yes, it is unfair, and we would like to see more fairness in the competition and in the standards we're expected to comply with.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

And I would agree with you on that, by the way. I'm not suggesting we point the finger at the retailer who is trying to provide food in a retail capacity. That is their role in the food supply chain. We can't all get to the farm gate the way I do, nor do I think you want everybody at the farm gate anyway, because there is not enough room for us all to be there in the first place.

But it seems to me that if we're going to set a standard, if we're going to set the bar, wherever we set it the bar ought to be the same for everyone. That includes those who are importing, because it isn't some farmer in some foreign country who has shown up at our door with his truck. He's not showing up in a half-ton pickup. It's an import organization that's bringing it into the country, and they have their company registered here. So it's not as if they don't understand or are not aware of the rules. Clearly, they're using that as a competitive advantage, and that, in my estimation, isn't where we ought to be taking this. Standards ought to be clear across the board.

If we have to inspect for that, it seems to me that's our burden as government, through the CFIA. It's not the burden of the farmers.

You indicated two things. One is the additional cost to the farmer, and the other piece is about traceability. I'm really interested in the traceability aspect, because it allows us to look back and find a situation like we had last year much more quickly, so we can trace back in a very quick way. I know your group and others in Ontario are doing other things, especially in the greenhouse business, where they're looking at the traceability aspect of their products.

Could you just speak quickly about the cost to you and how you'd like to see that shared in a different way, and about that aspect of traceability? I think folks would be interested in how you see that traceability working through the overall safety system.

[Brenda Lammens]

Presently, there are many different ways the products we produce are packaged. Some are done in a very sophisticated way through electronic grading. They have the ability to be computerized where everything is logged into the computer. They have the stickers on the product. They can simply look at the sticker and find out exactly what day and almost what tree that apple or that peach came from. Then we go to the other extreme where we have smaller farms that are packing and shipping directly, but they probably could trace back because they're only maybe shipping to two or three different buyers. So traceability could happen in whatever manual way they might do it.

What we need to do is make sure that everybody is doing the same thing, so we have something that has accountability and credibility, and if there ever was an issue, we could trace it back.

Those steps are taking place now. As I said, that's kind of step two that we're following. We have the programs in place, so now we need to get the traceability. It seems a hard one to work with. I don't know if people can't get their heads wrapped around it, or think, “Oh well, it's not going to happen to me”. We have to get over that and realize that it could very easily happen, so we are working on it.

At this time, we do have different organizations that have been set up specifically to work with traceability. Maybe it's becoming another market item out there that people want to help with, providing the technology to make that happen. As I said, it is something we are working on. I know a lot of the supply management groups have completed it, because they're looking more at the location of the piggery or the chicken farm, whatever, and that can be done through a lot of GPS mapping. But with horticulture, once the product is on a truck, you don't know where it has gone. But it is something we are working on and trying to figure out how to do it so it's not a burden. If it gets too complex, people will not want to do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Allen, your time has expired.

Mr. Shipley, seven minutes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for coming out today.

I want to chat a little bit, likely with Ms. Lammens. She's from Ontario, I'm from Ontario. Actually, I have an agriculture background, and some of my neighbours are very much into horticulture and are vegetable growers. I understand completely the significance of the food safety issues. I was in dairy for many years, and it wasn't a choice. Inspections were the norm, unpredictable stop-ins by inspectors to not only assess the inspection of the sanitization of our equipment, but also the aesthetic value, in some respects, of how you simply looked after your farm and your buildings.

I'm sort of interested to find out a little more from you in terms of it likely being market-driven but you would like to see it as mandatory. Has there been any movement, whether it's the Ontario fruit and vegetables or the Canadian, to take that step to see certification? You said, I think, 80% of your producers are participants in it or members of it.

[Brenda Lammens]

I would say participants, because the audit process is something that happens every four years. Or they can be random audits also. It's 80% of production, not necessarily the number of producers.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Okay. Can you give me any idea of the number of producers? Because you were concerned that the producers may not pass it but the larger ones may. Has there been any groundwork done, knowing the benefits of it, not only for the food safety part--that's the priority part--but because it becomes part of the marketing tool? It becomes a marketing tool in terms of the consumer. My family now, more than we did actually, watches the label, watches where it's coming from, and are more concerned about that than they used to be, and I think for obvious reasons. Is there initiative to move ahead on that?

[Brenda Lammens]

There is not any initiative I'm aware of to make it mandatory. You must realize that there are a lot of what we call mom-and-pop farms out there, family farms where maybe the mother and father and some of the kids are growing cucumbers or peppers or something, and they are not aware. Maybe they have heard at a grower meeting or something that they should be implementing an on-farm food safety plan. We've been looking at best agricultural practices to at least get them doing something that is creating some kind of accountability.

No, it's not mandatory. As grower groups, we certainly are encouraging all our producers to get involved. I believe that the marketplace will create that demand. We are encouraging our brokers to not accept products unless they have an on-farm food safety plan attached to them. At this point in time, that's about as much control as we have to force people to do it.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I'll get a little more in-depth in a minute.

One of the things I'm interested in is that we're very seasonal. That's Canada, I guess. Certainly, through the good weather, the summer.... These markets are going to start to open up in another month, and will stay through to October or November, some of them. What is the attitude of the people who come? Is it because they feel that they want to buy local? Is it because they feel safe about buying local? At these markets, there are not just fruits and vegetables; there's actually meat and all sorts of produce sold at them. Do they talk about that to you?

[Brenda Lammens]

Yes, they do. They want to know where their food is coming from. They feel that they're getting fresher, safer food when they come to the market or to the farm gate to buy that product. That, I guess, would cause a bit of concern, too, if you're looking at an on-farm food safety program, because that could be a bit of a misconception. Generally, I believe that most of the producers are doing a good job in what they're doing, but they need to be on a program so it can be certified.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I appreciate so much that comment. HACCP is basically a program that will give you the traceability right from the start. If it's chickens, it's from the day the egg is hatched until the day it hits the slaughterhouse. I don't know that, actually, even in the feather industry it is mandatory. I can take you to farm after farm after farm that, if they don't now, they likely would have the option at some point in time. It's protection for them. In some commodities, it's a premium to know that you have the certification.

I realize that in most of yours, much of what you have is marketed domestically. Certainly once you cross a border, once you start to move some of that, which many in the greenhouse industry have, which is a little different from you but is under the big blanket, you need to have that traceability or you'll have markets you can't access. I would just encourage as many people as possible, in terms of your organization, to consider it. Because there are vast benefits, not only for food safety but certainly for the marketing part. I think people are going to start to be more questioning about being able to trace this back only if something is wrong. I don't know if you agree with that.

[Brenda Lammens]

I certainly agree with it. As I say, traceability is the next step, and that's where we are driving our commodity groups. Certainly the fruit and vegetable growers are supporting traceability. Many of the commodity groups--you've cited the greenhouses--certainly have traceability. As I say, more of our sophisticated growers certainly have that already implemented on their farms.

There just is always that pocket we have to keep working with. It takes more work to try to get them on the programs and to get traceability in place. We certainly are working, and there are programs available to help them get on board too.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Your time has expired, Mr. Shipley.

Mr. Easter, you have five minutes.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, folks. I'm sorry I didn't hear quite all your presentation. Mr. Anderson and I had to leave for a minute.

This hearing, as you know, is really about how we can improve the food safety system based on the sad experience of listeriosis last fall that eventually ended up in 22 deaths. Certainly I'm concerned about the investigator and whether or not we're going to get to any political or government responsibility on that end, but we do have to do what we can to improve the system.

My colleague raised some questions earlier, so if I ask you a similar question just tell me so, because, as I said, I had to leave.

In the fruit and vegetable industry, Ms. Lammens, you had talked about and explained, I think, very well all the things that you have to do on the farm. There's no question you produce a high-quality product that is safe and gets on consumer shelves.

I was in Nova Scotia the week before last, and I learned there, in terms of their horticultural industry, that where in the 1970s they were producing 17% of the horticultural products that ended up on the shelves, today they're producing 8%. The problems are low returns, high costs, competition from other countries' product that is ending up on our store shelves that doesn't have to meet the same requirements that you have to meet.

I wonder what your views are in that regard. One, if the Government of Canada paid the costs of the Canadian food inspection program as it relates to you on the ground, as is done in the United States, what's your view in going in that area? It's allowable under the WTO, it's protection for consumers, and the United States covers a lot of their costs that we don't. Secondly, on the horticultural side, shouldn't product from other nations that's ending up on our shelves have to meet exactly the same standards as we do, or higher?

[Brenda Lammens]

Starting with your last question, we have discussed that. We did discuss the fact that, yes, they should meet our standards, because it doesn't create a fair marketplace for us. So we have discussed that.

With respect to the responsibility of the government to make sure that we do have on-farm food safety and that the program and the audit process are available so that we can be certified, there are funds right now. They were supposed to be announced yesterday. I hope they were announced today. Under the Growing Forward program, for on-farm food safety there are two streams of money. One stream of money would be to help to implement a program and allow for an audit process, and the other was for any type of upgrade you might have to do in your facility, whether it would be more stainless steel or a different type of grading line or whatever, to help bring you up to the standards that would be required to pass an audit. The only problem is that money is first-come, first-served, and it's shared with the processors, who are pretty big guys compared to a lot of 50-acre farmers.

There is money, but it's something we have to compete for. So if you don't get it, I don't know where you're going to find funding to do this. That's the way the program is set up today.

Yes, we need some help. You're talking about how there's less and less domestic product on the shelf. We've become a very privileged society, in that we can have food from all over the world, and we've become very accustomed to that. I think we need to take a look at what we grow seasonally in this country and enjoy it in season and start to understand that if you want to protect your Canadian farmers, you'd better start eating what we produce when we produce it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Your time has expired, Mr. Easter.