Evidence of meeting #9 for Subcommittee on Food Safety in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inspectors.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:20 p.m.
Food Processing Supervisor, Complex 3 - Toronto, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
From my perspective?
6:20 p.m.
Food Processing Supervisor, Complex 3 - Toronto, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
From my perspective, the CVS tasks do identify the company's written program. When the CVS task goes out, it is from a CVS manual that identifies what the inspector is to look for. For uniform delivery of the inspection system, if they're doing what they said they did because of the plant profile, then the scientific evidence should be there.
For argument's sake, if they cook a roast beef, then they have the scientific evidence and they have the thermographs that they're cooking it to the proper internal temperature. When the inspector does his CVS task and reviews all those records, that's enough science-based evidence to show that they are indeed meeting the internal temperature to kill organisms. The inspector doesn't need to be on the floor all the time too see every cooked batch that comes out.
The question that remains is that we can't properly deliver to 100% efficiency with the resources we have.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
6:20 p.m.
Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC
I need just one minute, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Allen asked earlier who called which witnesses. We checked into that for him, and we can give him some information.
Mr. Easter asked for Mr. Irons, Mr. Allen asked for Ms. Fowler, and both of you asked for Mr. Stamatakis. The request was sent out on behalf of the chair by the clerk to CFIA parliamentary affairs, which is the standard procedure for inviting witnesses to the committee.
I hope that helps.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for coming.
Mr. Irons, you made the comment a little earlier that there weren't enough resources to fully implement CVS.
6:25 p.m.
Food Processing Supervisor, Complex 3 - Toronto, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
That's one hundred percent correct.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
You can't tell us, off the top of your head, what those would be. Can you give us some idea of what you're doing, what CFIA is doing, in terms of being able to build and then implement...followed off with a pilot project that was implemented in April 2008? What I'm getting at is that it's a bit of a process when you look at all of the processing plants that you're dealing with. Can you give us some idea of the process you're going through in terms of helping to develop that? And two, can you provide any input in terms of how you're getting to that evaluation, and how we will eventually get to the full implementation?
Then the next part of it is this. I think everyone agrees that it is a viable and good system to have, which is all part of HACCP. If that is the case, then how are we going to implement it in totality, as a total aspect, across the plants? What sort of timeline do you see that taking?
6:25 p.m.
Food Processing Supervisor, Complex 3 - Toronto, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Again, that's a difficult question, because the conversation seems to be revolving around CVS. CVS is only one aspect of the inspector's job. If there was a mandate to do CVS and CVS only, we would be able to do it one hundred per cent. But a new sampling regime has just been implemented. We have to do all of the samples, which is another resource base. We have plants that are exporting to foreign countries, which is taking heavily from our resources. We have importing establishments. We import foreign products, which is another time-consuming piece. When you put the whole package together, it takes time. What we are trying to do now, and what all of the inspection staff is trying to do, is to work-plan it the best they can to prioritize their day, to be able to do all of the functions that are being requested of them.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
How do you work? Help me understand the inspectors. I'm trying to learn here. Between supervisors, inspectors, and.... When you take the tasks, as new things come along, you're trying to implement a program that will be growing in some ways--usually in technology and science--and maybe dropping off in other areas in terms of some of the physical work that used to be done. How does that work in terms of the discussions with the inspectors and the supervisors?
A comment was made earlier by the last witness that plant employees used to talk; they would sit around the floor and they talk. And if an inspector was there, they would pass on their concerns. But I got the impression that when an inspector is not there, those don't get passed on.
I'm trying to understand how this communication works. Have silos developed? How do we build this communication structure? If that were true, it would seem to me that the concerns of the inspectors are not getting passed up to supervisors. I hope that's not true.
I'm wondering what sort of process you have in terms of implementing new strategy to be as efficient. And when you work with all members of CFIA, how do you build in those efficiencies of multi-tasking? I don't think we can have some inspectors doing CVS and others just doing particular parts. That isn't what this is all about. It's got to be about product safety, a food safety initiative.
There's a fair bit there. I'd like to hear from some of the inspectors. I'd also like to hear from you, Mr. Irons, and perhaps from Ms. Airth.
6:25 p.m.
Food Processing Supervisor, Complex 3 - Toronto, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Realistically, we're talking about senior members of the inspection staff in years gone by, when we were on the floor much more often. There are always conscientious employees working for every organization, and sometimes the employees would give the inspectors a little whisper to come over and they would say, “Something is not right in this particular area of the facility”, or “They're doing this, so keep an eye out for that type of activity”.
It's not that the inspector really has a one-on-one with the plant employee, because they are there to do a function for the company they're working for. But during general conversation, and by watching people do their jobs, ensuring good manufacturing practice and so on, you would get to see the people. They would see you and know who you are, and they would just give you a little, “Psst--something's up.”
Now we're not on the floor as often as we were. That still may go on when the inspector is in the plant. But the way we do it and get involved in it in our area is that we have meetings once a month with all the staff to discuss the CVS, the implementation of it, and to discuss different aspects and incidents that have happened to each inspector in the facilities they have been assigned to. So there may be an approach to it that's discussed, and in the event that someone else comes across the same situation, it has been discussed.
So we are evolving in that way in the reporting of the CVS and the--
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Are there no communications? If an inspector has an issue, instead of...and that was a few years ago. But is there not now some way that if there's a concern, it can still get--
6:30 p.m.
Food Processing Supervisor, Complex 3 - Toronto, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Absolutely. In my case, the people I supervise would phone me immediately to discuss whatever issue they were concerned with, to look for guidance or clarification. We have people in our Guelph location who are program specialists and are always accessible for the inspectors to call at any time to get clarification on any program issue. We have the inspection manager, who is the one I report to, who is always available. If I need some guidance, I have that communication to call up on; it's not only to give direction down.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
Thanks, Mr. Shipley.
The lights are flashing. I don't want the witnesses to be alarmed. We do have some votes, but we have a few minutes, and we'll try to continue as long as we can.
Just to follow up on something you said, Mr. Irons, I think I heard you say that from time to time some employees, if they see something wrong, will point it out to an inspector. That would be a good thing, would it not?
6:30 p.m.
Food Processing Supervisor, Complex 3 - Toronto, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Absolutely.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
There's no question that inspectors have a difficult job, and it has to be trying. Last summer you must have really felt the heat, and you ought to know that we acknowledge that.
When Mr. Kingston was before us, he talked about the gag order from the government, from CFIA. The election was on. Some of you folks might even have been on that infamous conference call with the minister, I don't know. But the fact that an election is on should not impact food safety. Political spin should not override food safety; and certainly political fallout, which the minister seemed to worry about, should not override food safety.
This is to the inspectors--and management might have a different answer. From your perspective on the floor, did the fact that the election was on, that there seemed to be a gag order, that there seemed to be no communication, impact on you folks in any way?
6:30 p.m.
Inspector, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
To be honest with you, no. What's important for the front-line inspector is to get his job done. There are people relying on his or her decisions. Politics really doesn't come into it. If the inspector is doing his job correctly and reporting up the channels as he's supposed to, it should never influence his decision whatsoever. His job is not to be a politician. His job is to protect the food chain and the safety of people.
May 25th, 2009 / 6:30 p.m.
Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC
Mr. Easter may have forgotten there were daily press conferences. There was no blackout on anything, so he needs to acknowledge that.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
In fact, Mr. Kingston said before that there was. We know there was. Mr. Ritz can hold all the press conferences he likes. We don't believe him.
On the second point, is there pressure...and this is something that as government and as Parliament we have to decide. It's always the debate on whether inspectors should be from third party independents, like the Government of Canada and CFIA, or whether they should be managed and controlled by the plant. As inspectors with CFIA, do you ever feel much pressure from management? Of course it would depend on whether it's a modern plant where you can pull stuff off or whether it's like others, where you have to shut a line down, but do you feel undue pressure sometimes from management in terms of their profit and productivity versus your requirement for food safety?
6:35 p.m.
Inspector, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
I would have to answer that question by saying yes, the inspector has to be impartial. He cannot go in favour of the establishments and he cannot go in favour of the politicians. He must make a fair judgment, an honest judgment. He's there, as I mentioned before, to protect the safety of the consumer. He should use his discretion. He should listen to both sides.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Let me go one step further. If your paycheque were coming from the owner of the plant versus coming from CFIA, do you think you would have that same independence? Because that's the debate we're going to get to.
6:35 p.m.
Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC
Mr. Chair, on a point of order, that's completely hypothetical. It has nothing to do with the discussion we're talking about. People can surmise anything about Mr. Easter's theoretical questions here.
