Evidence of meeting #21 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ministers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Louise Thibault Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I will be brief, Madam Chair.
With respect what my colleague just read, it is quite remarkable that this was not the reason why he did not come. One day, we are told one thing, the next day we are told something else and last Friday, we were told yet something else again.
I was an official for 23 years and I am very familiar with the work of Ministers and senior officials. I know full well that it is the government that decides. Last week, I asked Mr. Maloney several times what the government intended to do about the specifications that I mentioned. Will he ask his officials to interpret this as “improved efficiency”, i.e. set aside and transfer the unused funds into this $Billion envelope? I asked if the Treasury Board gave the order. Indeed, I asked very directly.
What was going on with the officials...? They have to find $1 billion. Public Works has to take some money here and another Department takes it from there. The Ministers and the government make decisions, and the officials implement the decisions. Or did the officials have more room to manoeuvre to review their respective activities and then make their suggestions? The government and the Ministers will certainly decide, but this can be done in several ways. The general public and all of us here know who has the power when all is said and done. Nobody needs clarification on that point. The government must be in control.
During the sponsorship scandal, if officials had failed to testify before the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, there probably would have been consequences... They did it and we actually protected them. We ensured that their testimony would be kept confidential. It is done, and that’s why this Committee, like all committees, can go so far as to summon witnesses to appear, even though we prefer not to proceed that way.
We saw fit to first invite Mr. Ouellet and Mr. Dingwall, and then proceed accordingly. We tried to be reasonable. If they had not wanted to testify, we could have sent them a summons to appear. Parliamentarians do not take things lightly. Refer to the document from 1990 or from last night... Don’t think we know nothing, newly elected or not. In any case, I would shelve it.
If the Ministers want to accompany their senior officials when they are called to appear, well, they can. The questions that are directed at senior officials are meant for senior officials, not for Ministers. We won’t embarrass them. We won’t ask them any questions that they cannot answer. We’ll ask them questions dealing with their respective fields of responsibility. They should trust us, because the members of this Committee have always operated this way. I do not see why we would change the way we do things.
I now ask for the vote.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
I call the question.
(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]
Bloc
Louise Thibault Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Can we have a recorded vote? I forgot to request it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
On the main motion? It isn’t too late.
Ms. Thibault requested a recorded vote. We ask the Clerk to proceed with this vote.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
I'd just like to put a footnote comment on that. If I understand the purpose of--
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
We're in a vote. We're not quite finished yet. She wanted a recorded vote.
Liberal
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
On a point of order, Madam Chair, the vote has already in fact taken place. It has gained consent of the majority of the committee.
Conservative
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
The question should have been asked before we had the vote.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
That's fine. As a committee we will try to serve the members, and she asked that. It doesn't change anything.
Madam Clerk, go ahead.
The Clerk
The vote is on the main motion by Ms. Thibault, as amended.
( Motion agreed to; Yeas 6, nays 5.)
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Madam Chair, I'd like to put a motion.
I'd like to go on the record. Madame Thibault has asked for a recorded vote on this, and I want to ensure that our recorded vote “no” is taken in the spirit of wanting to hear from witnesses; wanting to hear from ministers and their responsible ministers, in accordance with the traditional rules of Parliament--
Liberal
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
You can't change your vote.
The committee is adjourned until Thursday.