Government Operations Committee on March 27th, 2007

[Dr. Peter Harrison]

Thank you, Madame Chair.

As I answered, this was covered by Industry Canada, to which I was attached. I would like to indicate to the chair and to the committee that my involvement in the World Maritime University and the University of Victoria was approved by the Ethics Commissioner.

Thank you, Madame Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Madame Nash, for another minute or so.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Harrison.

Why did your appointment as executive director not fall under the Public Service Employment Act, and is that going to be the case for the next executive director?

[Dr. Peter Harrison]

Madame Chair, I do not know what will happen in terms of the next executive director. I have been at the deputy minister level since December 1985, and for the last nearly nine years at deputy minister level two. Deputy ministers are appointed by the Governor in Council, and this position to which I was appointed was deemed to be a Governor in Council and order in council position. Since it is not mentioned in specific legislation other than now in terms of Bill C-2, the Public Service Commission of Canada provided an exclusion order that I remain a full-time public servant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you very much, Madame Nash.

We'll go to Monsieur Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I think it's important to understand the culture of entitlement to which the Accountability Act was a response. The previous government appointed the then justice minister's chief of staff to a federal bench; appointed a defeated Liberal candidate to head up the environment round table; appointed Alfonso Gagliano to become our ambassador to Denmark; appointed a Liberal MP, John Harvard, to be a lieutenant governor; and appointed Yvon Charbonneau, a Liberal MP, to UNESCO in order to make way for another candidate to seek elected office. We also have André Ouellet and other examples like this. That is where this comes from.

The difference here is we are seeking to appoint qualified people to necessary positions. I want to focus on one recommendation that you made that we have accepted as a government with respect to the Immigration Refugee Board advisory panel, and that is that those candidates who are considered for appointment must pass the necessary test in order to demonstrate their merit for the position. In the past, 28% of those who passed through the system had failed the test.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

No, I don't think that's what he said. I think 28% failed the test, but it doesn't mean they went on.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Did they go on?

I'll ask the witness.

[Dr. Peter Harrison]

If I may, Madame Chair, what we looked at was the current list of names available for ministerial selection that we had to define a particular group. That list amounted to 71 names. We did not know the names; we looked only at the cases. Twenty individuals did not meet the pass conditions that have been set out, and that's 28% of that 71.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

That's exactly the point I'm making. The 28% of those people made eligible for appointment had not passed the examination. Is that correct?

[Dr. Peter Harrison]

If I may, Madame Chair, I would make one slight change. Those were names that were made available for the minister to consider.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

That's exactly my point.

We have agreed with your recommendation that success on the examination ought to be an unequivocal prerequisite to consideration for those jobs. I'd like to thank you for that recommendation. I think it's a very good recommendation. I think it changes the approach of the previous government, which was not as merit based, and it moves towards an objective system that guarantees that candidates for positions on these boards will be qualified. I think, on behalf of Canadians, you're owed some thanks for your work on this report.

Mr. Warkentin, did you want to ask a few questions?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

If there's a little bit of time, yes.

I think Mr. Poilievre did cover a number of things, and I did want to thank you. I don't want you to leave here believing that your work on what you call a noble cause--I would call it an essential cause--has gone without thanks. We do appreciate it.

As was pointed out, of this $500,000 that's been spent to reinforce our ideological perspective that accountability and transparency and better government can be provided to Canadians, there's no doubt that $500,000 is a small price to pay for the momentous work you are undertaking and beginning. I absolutely thank you, and I know that it's going to go a great distance in ensuring that Canadians will get good government moving forward and a good bureaucracy to follow.

Thank you very much. We do appreciate your efforts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Before I go on to Mr. Turner, I'd just say, by the way, I know a lot of people who wrote the exams for the Immigration Refugee Board and were turned down because they didn't pass. I don't know for what reasons these were included. Maybe there were other reasons; we don't know for sure. We just know that they were.

Mr. Turner.

[Garth Turner, Conservative, Halton, ON]

I'm a little intrigued about the 71 people. We've brought this up so many times during this meeting. What actually happened to the 20 who did not pass and went on? How many of them actually ended up being appointed and going through the whole process?

[Dr. Peter Harrison]

Madame Chair, I don't have an answer to that question, because these were names that are currently in for ministerial consideration that we looked at. I am not privy to what happened since that point in time.

[Garth Turner, Conservative, Halton, ON]

It's been brought up so many times as the pre-eminent example of why the system didn't work. I think it would be great for us to know how many of those people actually ended up in any kind of position. Were there any negative results that happened?

Is there any way of finding out what happened to those 20 people? Did they all fall by the wayside, or were they all appointed?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

We can investigate it further.

[Garth Turner, Conservative, Halton, ON]

That would be fun, but you have no knowledge.

[Dr. Peter Harrison]

I have no knowledge, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

He didn't know the names of the people.

You didn't see the names. Is that right?

[Dr. Peter Harrison]

That's correct. We were provided with data that did not indicate who these individuals were.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

It would be hard to know who they were.

Yes, Mr. Turner, continue.

[Garth Turner, Conservative, Halton, ON]

Finally, on the praise you received in terms of the work you've done for accountability and transparency in the system that Mr. Warkentin heaped on you, I'd like to go back for a moment.

Do you think accountability and transparency have actually been accomplished since the Prime Minister chose to withdraw his only suggested appointee and not bring anyone else in?

[Dr. Peter Harrison]

Madame Chair, I can reply as I have that the role of the secretariat was to move forward the staff work in order to put in place what had been determined first by the government through order in council and secondly by Parliament through Bill C-2.