Evidence of meeting #44 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was problem.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Gordon  National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Lisa Addario  Employment Equity Officer, Public Service Alliance of Canada
David Orfald  Director of Planning and Organizational Development, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Gary Corbett  Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Denise Doherty-Delorme  Section Head of Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau

I'm going to call the meeting to order, seeing as we have a quorum.

I believe our invited guests are here, if they'd like to come forward and take a seat at the table. They are John Gordon, Lisa Addario, and David Orfald.

Thank you for coming before us.

As you know, we are doing a bit of a study on the challenges facing the public service in terms of replacing itself and retaining some of the people it trains. I believe the challenge will become greater as the years go by.

If you'd like to make a statement, we usually allow about 10 minutes. Were you each going to speak? You're here together? How is this going to work?

3:35 p.m.

John Gordon National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

We're here together, Madam Chair. I'll be giving a statement and then my colleagues will be assisting me with questions as they come up.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau

Please go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

First of all, I want to thank you for inviting me to participate in this hearing.

I have with me today Lisa Addario, an employment equity officer, and David Orfald, our director of planning and organizational development.

The PSAC represents over 160,000 workers, the vast majority of whom work for the federal government in its departments and agencies.

Our union firmly believes the Government of Canada must address the changing demographic nature of our society in its employment and staffing policies and practices.

It is not good enough, as the President of the Public Service Commission told us last week, that 88.6% of federal staffing was insecure employment in term, student, and casual positions. It's not good enough, as the President of the Public Service Commission told you last week, that while “applicants to our programs are highly representative of visible minorities, we have yet to achieve appointment levels equal to workplace availability”.

The President of the Public Service Commission sugar-coated the problem when she said:

We found that 17% of new employees appointed to term and indeterminate positions had a history of casual employment. We need to be more strategic.

With respect, I would argue, and argue forcefully, that being more strategic is not the solution. Reducing, if not eliminating, the backdoor opportunities to term and indeterminate employment is the solution, and it's a solution our staffing agencies ignore.

The President of the Public Service Commission omitted to mention the impact of short-term recruitment on equity group members. Staffing for part-time or short-term needs does not attract the same consideration of employment equity objectives as are in place when an employer is staffing an indeterminate position.

According to the Public Service Commission's annual report for 2004-05, approximately 65% of those hired permanently into the federal public service were hired from a pool of temporary workers. Perhaps this is why the Senate committee recently described this hiring practice as a “significant stumbling block” to achieving employment equity.

Added to this is the significant amount of harassment and discrimination reported by racialized members of the public service.

As long as parliamentarians allow the PSC and departments to ignore it, equity-seeking groups will knock at the staffing door of the Government of Canada and they will be denied. It is as simple as that.

I think it is also fair to say that the PSC has an overly optimistic view of its capacity to address the demographic change that is occurring in our society. While it is true to say that the government currently has an abundance of job applicants and that students view the public sector as an employer of choice, it is equally true that the federal government's workforce is aging more quickly than the rest of the economy. More than one-third of its workforce is over 50 years of age, and retirement ages are generally younger than the population as a whole.

That calls for urgent action, and urgent action is not what we are seeing. Staffing actions to replace people who retire from the public sector--and there will be many over the next few years--are not the most significant issue. The most significant issue will be the loss of institutional memory that the government faces.

So saying, as the Public Service Commission does, that we are well equipped to replace staff and put people in the chairs of the retirees gives no indication whatsoever as to how well we are equipped to transfer the knowledge and expertise departing workers take with them. In some areas, it will be a substantial loss, and it has the potential to adversely impact delivery of public services.

So what is to be done? There are those who would lead you in the direction of making it more difficult for people to retire, perhaps by eroding federal pensions. I want to tell you that this would be wrong, as well as wrong-headed.

But I also want to suggest some approaches that would create a positive environment for addressing this challenge. There is no doubt the average age of retirement is a significant issue in the loss of institutional memory. The average age of retirement in the federal public sector in fiscal 2004-05 was 59. That said, fully 27%, or 1,278, of those who retired in 2004-05 did so at the age of 55.

Federal public sector workers contribute to the Public Service Superannuation Plan, a defined-benefit plan that provides pension income that equals 2% of the average best five years of continuous employment, multiplied by the number of years of service. Defined-benefit pension plans are under attack in Canada and elsewhere, but the reality is they should be championed, because they, and they alone, reward workers' long service. They're an essential part of keeping employees on the job. It is a fact that the federal public sector pension plan is a less advantageous defined-benefit plan than the large employer private sector norm because it is integrated with the Canada/Quebec pension plans, whereas most defined-benefit plans that cover workers in large private sector employers are stacked on top of the Canada Pension Plan and the Quebec Pension Plan.

You should also know that the average pensions are anything but generous, particularly for women. In 2005, federal public sector retirees received an average pension of $20,703 after working for the federal government for 22.5 years. Men fared better than women by a country mile, receiving on average a $24,229 pension, compared to the average pension of $14,185 for a retired federal public sector woman worker.

I want to say this: no one should begrudge any public or private worker the opportunity to retire and enjoy some quality time after working an average of nearly a quarter of a century for an employer with a defined-benefit pension plan. In short, there is no basis for making it more difficult for people to retire. A better approach is to create a more flexible workplace, offering enhancements that make it more attractive to keep retiring workers in the workplace longer.

In 1998, as a result of discussions with the PSAC over the workforce adjustment policy, the federal government re-implemented a policy that allows public sector workers employed directly by Treasury Board an opportunity to reduce their working time when they are within two years of retirement. While pay is prorated, when a federal worker takes advantage of this policy and reduces his or her working time by 20% to 40%, benefits remain the same and pensions are unaffected. This is a good policy, and it has clearly assisted the employer by allowing it to retain knowledge, while simultaneously allowing future retirees to make the transition.

Budget 2007 provides workers, including federal government workers, an opportunity to receive pension benefits and simultaneously work and accumulate further pension benefits. This change, which the PSAC supports, was proposed to encourage older workers to stay on the job longer. This benefit will provide flexibility for many older workers, and simultaneously and significantly it will also assist employers, including the federal government, to adjust to the demographic changes occurring in the economy and help to ensure that knowledge, expertise, and institutional memory are seamlessly transferred from one generation of workers to the next. So it is clearly a win-win, and I would encourage members of this committee to ensure that the necessary amendments to the Income Tax Act, the Pension Benefits Standards Act, and the Public Service Superannuation Act are introduced and passed before year-end so that Treasury Board and other federal public sector employees can implement the change when it comes into effect on January 1, 2008.

The key to adapting to a demographic change and ensuring that Canadians are well served by the public service is flexibility. Flexibility allows workers to ease into retirement, and flexibility allows them to remain on the job in a reduced capacity that facilitates the transfer of knowledge and experience to new hires into the system, who represent the diversity of Canada.

There are other things the government can and should do as an employer. It can and should, for example, ensure that federal departments and agencies use students and student employment in accordance with government policy and not as cheap manual labour, as is currently the practice too frequently in too many departments and agencies.

Moreover, the government can and must do more with regard to apprenticeship programs. During our last round of bargaining with Treasury Board, we advanced the demand on apprenticeship. While we did not achieve this contract language, the issue has not gone away.

According to our research, fully 50% of our members who work in the skilled trades can be expected to retire between 2003 and 2013. An adequate apprenticeship program will help the government face the prospect of trying to hire thousands of skilled trades in an environment where our economy faces a critical shortage of skilled workers, and it will provide interesting opportunities for existing employees to pass on skills to the next generation.

To sum up, the government, like all major employers, faces significant challenges on the employment front if it is to provide Canadians with the service they need and deserve. In order to meet these challenges in an effective and serious way, it needs to be innovative and provide more flexibility in terms of retirement.

But it needs to do more than this. It must, as a matter of principle and fairness, ensure that its workforce is representative of the Canadian population. That it has failed thus far to do this is more than unfortunate. That officials mandated to achieve this objective dismissed their failure to do so with the disingenuous assertion that the system needs to be more strategic is a disgrace.

Canadians deserve better, and the government can certainly do better. We encourage the government to act on these recommendations in order to be an employer of choice for the future.

I thank you again for allowing us to make the presentation.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau

Thank you.

Committee members, this group is here for the first hour, so we'll ask questions of them and then we'll invite the next group to come forward.

Mr. Simard.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and welcome to our witnesses today.

I guess my first comment is that when Mrs. Barrados appeared before us, she seemed a lot more confident than you do in terms of being able to adapt to this demographic problem that we seem to be having. Some of our colleagues...I know Mr. Poilievre has been following this file very closely, and he seems to think it's a huge issue. To be honest, I was very comforted last week when she appeared before us and told us that everything is under control and there don't seem to be a lot of issues.

You're telling us a bit of a different story here. I wonder if you can expand on that. Obviously you heard Mrs. Barrados' testimony, so can you maybe give us an idea of where you differ?

3:45 p.m.

Lisa Addario Employment Equity Officer, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Thank you. If I may, just for the moment, I'd like to speak to the matter of employment equity in the federal public sector. As you may well know, despite a very well-resourced initiative that took place between the years 2000 and 2003, the number of racialized workers within the federal public sector remains lower by quite a large margin than the workforce availability. That is to say, the number of people who are available and willing to work in the federal public sector who are members of visible minorities are much larger than the number of people who are actually at work in the federal public sector.

The Perinbam task force made recommendations and set goals in the year 2000. These goals were adopted by the government as being realistic and achievable.

To cut to the chase, the major goal was that—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

Excuse me, Madam Chair, I don't believe that's what I asked.

You're speaking to something totally different. I believe the question I asked was that we had very comforting testimony last week from Mrs. Barrados saying that everything was under control, that they're managing this thing with absolutely no problem. I'd like to know what your vision is on that. Your view seems to be totally different.

We'll get to employment equity at one point.

3:45 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

The whole idea that they're managing well in the public service is not borne true by the demographics that were shown in the survey that was brought forward last year. It's just not happening.

The plan was to assist it, but it didn't happen. It needs a direct intervention of all the staffing authorities within government to make these things happen, and we don't see that happening.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

Can you define the relationship between your group and your employer right now, at this point? In the relationship, are things going well?

3:45 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

We're just entering into collective bargaining, and so far so good.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

So far so good. But at some point, there are situations where there's a lot of animosity. You're not there right now.

3:45 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

Not at the moment.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

Okay.

You talked about the transfer of corporate knowledge. I thought that was interesting, and I do think that's very important. I think you bring up a very important point. That was one of my first questions, before you dealt with it a little bit later in your presentation. You talked about maybe having some flexibility and having some senior people stay on.

Do you think senior people will want to stay on? Have you asked your people if that's a possibility? It seems to me we heard last week that people are leaving fairly early, so do you think that would be a possibility?

3:45 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

Given the opportunity, I think people would rather ease into retirement. That flexibility gives an opportunity to government as an employer to ensure that the transfer of knowledge takes place in, I guess, a better way.

So yes, I believe our membership are looking for opportunities to continue. Right now, essentially, people get to the end of their tenure with their employer and say, “That's it, I'm gone.”

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

Are there talks with the employer in terms of putting that kind of system or structure into place?

3:45 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

We aren't there yet.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

Okay.

What did you mean by “backdoor opportunities”?

3:45 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

With regard to backdoor opportunities, they have a lot of people coming in as casuals and terms who then end up in some pools, but not as indeterminate employees. Then 65% of the staff in indeterminate positions come from those pools. But in fact if you open up the employment opportunities to everybody at the same time, you have a larger group of talent applying for the jobs.

What we say in the brief also is that with regard to the numbers of people from various equity groups applying for jobs, the numbers are there, but the reality is that it doesn't show them being employed at the end of the day. There's a disconnect between trying to achieve the goals of employment equity in particular in a racialized community and what we actually see.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

It seems to me there was a plan a few years ago, Madam Chair, in terms of getting our levels up.

3:50 p.m.

A voice

It's still there.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

It's still there? But we haven't achieved those numbers, obviously.

Can you comment on that?

3:50 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

That's for Lisa.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB

I told you I'd give you an opportunity.

3:50 p.m.

Employment Equity Officer, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Lisa Addario

Would you like to ask a question about that?