Government Operations Committee on March 29th, 2007

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Yes. Basically, I think there was a group that put together a study on that, and with certain objectives. Can you tell us if we've achieved that, or where we are? My understanding is that we're not even close to being there. Maybe you could just expand on that.

[Lisa Addario]

The answer is that we didn't achieve the objective. The objective was for one in five external recruits to be a member of a racialized community. Over the course of three years, the best the government achieved was one in ten, in one of the three years.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

The answer from the President of the Treasury Board, when I asked him this question, was that we feel very comfortable in hiring people based on merit. I'm not sure if that's an actual quote, but that was the essence of the message.

Again, with regard to skilled trades, I mentioned to Ms. Barrados that it has to be difficult in the government right now, given the hot private sector.

What do you see coming down the road in terms of some of the trades we're dealing with, and the competition? We're probably losing a lot of these people right now to the private sector.

[David Orfald, Director of Planning and Organizational Development, Public Service Alliance of Canada]

I'll respond to that.

The skilled trades group in the federal public service is one of the groups that is older, on average, than the ones you see generally across the federal public service. In fact, we're looking at a really significant number of retirements in the next ten years, up to 50% of the existing group.

As you know, the skilled trades area is becoming a highly competitive area generally in the economy. All kinds of employers are having trouble hiring in that area. That's one of the reasons why I think John highlighted the idea, or support for the idea, of an apprenticeship program within the federal government--to attract, train, and develop the essential skilled trades workers who still exist.

There's a related issue here. You'll know that numbers in the skilled trades area have declined in the federal public service over the last 15 years or so. A considerable amount of what's happened there is that work that used to be done in-house is now being contracted out to private sector companies on a just-in-time basis.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Is that because they can't find people?

[David Orfald]

There are probably a couple of elements there. One is that they can't find people, and another one is that they've adopted it because it provides them with more flexibility around hiring—

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you very much.

We're going to go to Madame Thibault.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I want to begin by thanking the witnesses for being with us today.

Mr. Gordon, if this meeting were taking place in an amphitheatre on a college or university campus, or in a professional training centre, and I was one of the student apprentices sitting here listening to you, I can tell you I would not be the slightest bit interested in applying for a job in the public service, with the intention of working there.

Is that part of your message for us today?

[John Gordon]

There are two parts to that. I don't know that it would have been on the apprenticeship front; it would have been on the equity front. I think what's happening is that people are applying to come into the public service. The numbers are there. It's just that in terms of equity they don't seem to be getting in the door.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I am not only talking about equity.

I listened to your comments and I have your brief in front of me. You said that, based on average salary levels for men and women retirees, women are even less well off than men. I don't know whether that was before pay equity or since it has come into effect. As well, you talked about retirement pensions not being as generous as those in the private sector.

I am not trying to be ironic but, quite honestly, I want to ask you this question: after hearing that, why would anyone want to work for the public service, whether or not there is a demographic deficit?

Based on my own experience—because I was a public servant for 26 years—there is a certain reality in terms of working conditions. I left the public service a few years ago, but I would like to know whether the government has become a bad employer with respect to working conditions or for other reasons. I ask that question in relation to the challenge we are currently facing—that is the subject of our study today—in other words, the fact that many public servants will be retiring soon. Are we in a position to ensure that there will not be too much disruption as that occurs? Will we be able to find people who are just as competent to do the job even, in some cases, perhaps even more competent?

I have already talked about this, and you will notice if you have read the Committee proceedings. Indeed, it is clear that you read Ms. Barrados' testimony. Other than the pensions and the measures that you discussed with us, are you confident or do you think that Ms. Barrados put a positive spin on things in order to recruit new employees and stimulate interest, among not only young people but people in mid-career as well, in the idea of working for the public service and serving the people of Canada?

My question goes back to what my colleague asked you when he wanted to know whether you are confident that we will succeed, in spite of the obstacles and challenges we are facing. I understand that you are speaking for the 160,000 members of the Alliance.

[John Gordon]

In terms of recruitment and retention in the public service, our view is that people are applying in great numbers, but they're not getting in. They're getting into temporary and casual positions, but they are not given long-term opportunities. What we're seeing is that 65% of the people who enter the federal public service in indeterminate positions have to first of all go through either casual employment or term employment. There's no real enticement for them to come to the public service, in my view.

With respect to the pension gap, what we're merely showing, obviously, is that the pension gap between men and women is what it is. On average, men get pensions of $24,229, as opposed to women, who get $14,185. It shows a great disparity in the wage levels of the public service. Why is that? You may get in, but you don't advance. There are a whole bunch of barriers that may be in the system and need to be addressed.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I see.

When Ms. Barrados appeared before us, I put a question to her. I asked her whether human resources planning was still just as bad.

And you are confirming that workforce and human resources planning is inadequate, because they are using a roundabout way—the fact is that this has been going on for ever, and I find it to be completely unacceptable, as I have also said—to recruit people on a temporary basis, even though they know that the need is permanent. So, the source of the problem is the staffing managers' delegation and the fact that people do not carry out any kind of human resources planning; they are content to meet the most pressing needs by hiring casual employees and figure that they will just wait and see what happens subsequently.

Did I understand you correctly in that respect?

[John Gordon]

It seems to be a deterrent.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I see.

I imagine that the Chair is going to tell me that my time has run out. Madam Chair, I would like to ask one last question.

On page 2 of the French version of your statement, you say, and I quote:

Added to this is the significant amount of harassment and discrimination reported by racialized members of the public service.

Can you tell me where I can get objective information about this? I have no doubt that this is not an allegation you make lightly. I would like to have documentation on this, because I believe this to be a very serious problem which has far-reaching consequences. I cannot just ignore this sentence on page 2 of your brief.

I imagine that my time is up, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Yes.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I thought so.

Thank very much.

[John Gordon]

To take you to the point where you can find it, you'll find it in the public service employment survey, 2002 to 2005.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Epp.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you very much.

I appreciated your presentation.

I have a couple of questions with respect to the overall view.

First of all, you were somewhat critical of the testimony we heard the other day. I would like to ask you a question with respect to one question you had. It's at paragraph five or so on the second page. You said “being more strategic is not the solution”. I would like to know what you meant by that, because it seems to me that if you have a problem, the answer is to be strategic and to find a good strategy. Are you perhaps taking exception to the strategy being employed, as opposed to suggesting we should not have any strategy at all?

[John Gordon]

It's certainly not to suggest there should not be a strategy. It would be folly. We're saying what appears to be before us is that hiring people in temporary or casual positions is not necessarily a good long-term solution to the problem. If you're going to have that as your strategy, I don't think it is going to assist you as well as you'd like.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

I don't know exactly what the rules are, so I'm making an assumption here. I assume that when you talk about hiring people on a temporary basis or in term positions, it is a detriment to hiring people. I'm guessing the reason is that people who are really well qualified are not going to put their careers at risk by going into something that is uncertain, whereas those who are very capable would probably go somewhere where they can be hired right off the bat.

I think a lot of people would benefit from this, particularly young people, whom I think we should be recruiting into the civil service so that we have a long-term institutional memory, and so on. The employer can hire them without having to make a long-term commitment before they have really good evaluations. You can learn quite a bit about people by interviewing them and reading their résumés, but until they have actual work experience, you don't know.

In this way, you could hire young people and identify those who are really strong. You'd then have policies that could bring them into permanent positions in the civil service after about two years. It would be a good policy. Would you agree or disagree with my statement?

[John Gordon]

There's nothing wrong with term employment in the federal public service, in terms of the purpose of term employment. In large part, people come into positions on a term basis, and you see them lasting in term positions for many years in some instances. To me, if it's the hiring strategy the government has, I think it's wrong.

There's a purpose and a reason for using short-term solutions in the workforce, and term is usual in that respect and sometimes it's even casual in that respect.

But as a long-term solution, it certainly doesn't give people the opportunity to establish careers, if careers are what they're looking for in the public service, to advance through the public service, and to gain knowledge, which is going out the door at the other end, through retirement and what have you. If you want that revolving door, you're never going to maintain corporate knowledge.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Okay. Well, I accept your answer.

I would now like to ask you about the indication you had about harassment and discrimination reported by racial members of the public service. This is an item of great concern. I believe we have regulations and rules that would prevent it. I would expect that when it happens, it is properly reported and dealt with, and that should hopefully reduce it. What's your reaction to that?

As a group that's representing these workers, I'm sure you go to bat for them. I haven't heard of anything recently. Is it because it's done in secret?

You say there's a significant amount, but we're not hearing about it. I wish we did hear about it, so that if there is something, we can do something about it.

[Lisa Addario]

The statistic comes from the 2005 public service employee survey, a voluntary survey that employees are encouraged to fill out. A similar survey was done in 2002, and one before that in 1999. The specific questions related to harassment and discrimination were the same for 2002 and 2005, so the results are comparable.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Are you actively pursuing it when one of these is reported to you by one of your members? Do you then go to bat for them to say this is wrong, correct it, stop doing it? Do you do that?