Evidence of meeting #44 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was problem.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
Okay.
One thing I'd like to bring up is women; we didn't talk about this with our first guest, but they did mention the pension gap. I'm assuming the gap there is probably because there was a salary gap at one point. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
With regard to salaries, are they on an equitable basis right now? Is that an issue?
4:50 p.m.
Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
With respect to the private sector?
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
No, with respect to government. If a woman and a man get the same level of job at the federal level, are they paid the same thing?
4:50 p.m.
Denise Doherty-Delorme Section Head of Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
We represent members who work in the professional positions. For the most part, we still see women very much underrepresented in the scientific fields. Because they do work for a union, if they do get in, the salaries are the same.
In terms of the amount of women, or the amount of people from the equity groups, they are not being hired. They're out there in the workforce, and they are making applications. Madam Barrados talked about all those hits to the website. So they are making applications; they are not being hired. In many of the scientific groups, white men represent the vast majority of the people in those groups.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
Given that 60% of students in post-secondary facilities are women, I believe, there's going to be one heck of a challenge here. If they don't see an opportunity at the federal government, there's going to be one heck of a problem.
4:50 p.m.
Section Head of Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
It goes back to the answer our colleagues gave earlier. As Mr. Dewar brought up, even the professionals are hired under temp agencies. We may have biologists and chemists and doctors hired under temp agencies, which don't have to follow the equity rules. The professionals may be hired full time afterwards, circumventing all of the equity goals put there in the first place.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
You've also spoken of competition for people in certain professions. The example I always bring up is the Auditor General saying that they just can't find auditors. The competition is incredible across the country right now. As a matter of fact, places like Coopers are paying people $20,000 to $30,000 more than they used to pay.
How do we make it attractive for these people to come and work with the federal government?
4:50 p.m.
Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
I think the federal government is an attractive place to work overall. It does attract. Obviously, from the number of applicants, it attracts people. It's just that when people get into the public service, it is not....
I mean, it's attractive because people have a desire to do public service, public good. That draws a lot of people. But when they get into the public service and it becomes that the resources are...it's a tough slog, and they can find a job elsewhere that pays more.
They lose the desire; I think that's probably the best way to put it.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
Just one last question. Where do you see the problems occurring first? You must have analyzed all this and said we're going to run into problems with, for instance, auditors, or within certain departments even. Have you analyzed that at all?
4:55 p.m.
Section Head of Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
The science and technology management secretariat surveyed their members--we alluded to this in our presentation--and asked their managers which professions they'll have a hard time filling in the next three to five years.
The first one was researchers, so people doing basic research. We're talking about research on crops or water or issues that affect our health and the environment. The second was the applied scientist, so the chemist, biologist, agrologist, meteorologist. And the third one was technical help, technical support, so those people who know how to use the machines that do the analysis. And that came from frontline managers with regard to the next three to five years.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Louise Thibault Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I am going to do exactly what I did a little earlier for the witnesses we heard before you. Like Mr. Simard, I am wondering whether there is any hope. Would you say that your comments—I won't say your vision—apply to all of Canada? I'm asking that question because I want to talk about a region I feel particularly strongly about—my own, which is the Lower St. Lawrence and Gaspé region.
The Institut Maurice-Lamontagne is in the riding of one of my colleagues, in Sainte-Flavie. They carry out ocean research there. As you know, we're talking about Rimouski. It has connections to all the learning institutions as regards ocean sciences, including the University of Quebec in Rimouski, the Quebec Maritime Institute, the Rimouski Ocean Sciences Institute, research centres, and so on. I could name you several more.
I am talking about young people and some who are less young, of both female and male researchers. I see people who are very happy to work for the federal public service. Not only are they happy with their job, but they are also happy to be living in a wonderful region and to enjoy good quality of life living close to an estuary, their family, and so on, being able to go hiking, engage in recreational activities, go kayaking and do things that they may not necessarily find elsewhere. Is that what you are also hearing? Like your union colleagues that came before you, you talked about practical issues such as salaries, structures and resources. Of course, all of that is part of it. Someone would not agree to work for a pittance, but at the same time, there are other things in life. There is the future and everything that entails. Do you consider that? You talk in very rational terms—only about working conditions, salaries and retirement, because people have to work 30 or 40 years. Those are obviously factors. But there are other ones as well. Is the situation the same all across Canada or do you consider the fact that, in some regions, there are quite considerable differences?
4:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Is there hope? Yes, there is hope. I think there's reason to hope. Yes, there are notable differences across regions and across sectors. I've visited many, many laboratories. As a matter of fact, I come from a laboratory that was closed down under program review in 1998. These things are happening across the country, and I do see differences in the country.
Yes, there are good stories. I think generally people have a desire to work for the public service, but it doesn't negate the fact that if they're in the public service and conditions are tough and there is a better place to go, that's where they're going to go. And when they go, that's going to be our problem.
4:55 p.m.
Section Head of Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
I would like to add something. I have visited—
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
4:55 p.m.
Section Head of Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Yes, exactly. I spoke to researchers that work there—and particularly a post-doctoral researcher who is now on his fifth term contract with the Institute. As my colleagues from the Public Service Alliance of Canada were saying, he was a student, not a public servant, but he was between the age of 35 and 40. A fifth term contract should not happen. To do it once, to give someone an opportunity to gain experience is fine. But not five times. Departments are still using this mechanism because it costs them less and because there are no benefits to pay. It's easier, but it should not be happening.
5 p.m.
Bloc
5 p.m.
Section Head of Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Yes, exactly.
Furthermore, we are of the opinion that labs don't have enough money. There have been cuts for years now. They are not as happy as they might be.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Louise Thibault Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I am putting this question to you seriously. On page 10 of your brief, you say: “Professionals in the public service are already doing the job of two people due to the cutbacks in personnel since the early 1990s.”
Do you think that is because employees were lazy or because—
5 p.m.
Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Actually, Madame, the brief says that. I actually said they're already overstretched as a result of ongoing cutbacks since program review. So the brief says one thing and I said another.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Louise Thibault Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
My question had to do with the fact that one worker today is the equivalent of two workers back in 1990.
Also, what exactly are you doing as a union? Of course, I understand what you are doing and I am aware of that, but you are speaking on behalf of current members of the Professional Institute. I would like to know what you are doing for the people who join the public service later on. Surely you are out there in the field raising awareness. I'm not only talking about getting people to pay union dues; I'm talking about getting people interested in working for the public service and representing them. I would like to have two or three examples of tangible actions you are taking to help resolve the demographic deficit that will affect us all.
5 p.m.
Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
We've been working with the S and T community secretariat for some 10 years now. It is a Treasury Board group. We also work with each science-based department and agency in terms of consultation, which, as you know, is very important under the Public Service Modernization Act. We work collegially and we work cooperatively with the departments to try to identify ways we can deal with all issues, not just the impending crisis that's in front of us. As a union, we believe we need to work with management in support of our members and for the goals of Canada.
