Government Operations Committee on Feb. 7th, 2008

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm back again.

Again, in terms of the retirement rates as we look to 2015, I'm wondering if you have statistics on the expectations with regard to the percentage of the civil service that will retire between now and 2015. Do you have any sense of what the numbers will be?

[Karen Ellis]

Do you mean the numbers on average per year?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Yes, or even just between now and 2015.

[Karen Ellis]

We can provide those numbers. I don't want to try to list them here in a conversation. I think we've modelled out to 2020, so we'll give you the full prospect.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I think for the committee's benefit it would be helpful to maybe speak at one point with the folks who are doing the statistics. I think that would be helpful for us so that we could more clearly understand this.

I know they probably wouldn't have the breakdown of every question we might have—

[Karen Ellis]

But they would have a lot of good data.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

They would, yes, and I think that's probably what we're really trying to get after.

We've had some discussions already this morning about the regional distribution of jobs and different things. There was talk about the $14,000 difference between the different classifications of jobs. However, within different regions, $40,000 in certain regions is far less money than $40,000 in another region. Cost of living, housing, and all those different things play a factor in that.

As a matter of fact, I can give you anecdotal evidence about a crown corporation. Some people from my home town were looking for transfers from Grande Prairie to the Maritimes, specifically because they could sell their home, get out of their mortgage, and live mortgage-free in a nicer home. They wouldn't have that mortgage payment, so really they'd have more income. Or that's the way they viewed it.

I'm wondering whether, in terms of civil service studies, there has been any consideration of those particular points--how and where civil servants are placed, and if that might be a component or reason as to why fewer people in the regions give up their jobs, whereas in some of the more metropolitan areas they do give up their jobs. Has there been any research or consideration of those points?

[Karen Ellis]

Not to date, not that we're aware of.

The only thing I can comment on is, for example, if someone works at Foreign Affairs and their career is going on postings and coming back to Ottawa and whatever, there will obviously be the cost-of-living provisions to equalize things when they go on a posting But this is just—

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

This is just domestically.

[Karen Ellis]

Domestically, you're talking about?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Domestically, yes.

[Karen Ellis]

I don't know that we're aware of any studies or research, but I would say somebody probably looks at a number of factors, including what you've talked about, in trying to make a decision on a move or a relocation. But we don't have anything definitive I could talk about on that.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

This is of significant interest to me because I come from a region of high employment. As a result, what we've seen in the private sector is a real dependence on temporary foreign workers. I fear the day the federal government will have to bring in temporary foreign workers to fill our positions. I hope it doesn't ever come to the point where we have to do that. That's why I'm concerned and hopeful that we're looking to the future, if we ever come to a point where there's high demand for employees, that we've considered what we're going to do.

[Karen Ellis]

One point I can make is that regional rates of pay are an issue. Treasury Board Secretariat could talk to you about that. Obviously there are people who know a bit more about what you're asking, and I would just mention that for the benefit of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you very much, Ms. Ellis. It's been very, very good, and you've given us a lot of good information.

We'll excuse you at this time, but I won't stop the session, because we have to deal with some other issues. Mr. Angus has given me notice that he wants to move his motion.

[Karen Ellis]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

The witness today gave us a lot of information, which is refreshing, but I think there's a tonne of other things we could explore with this witness and/or something similar, because this is finally informative—

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Yes, it has been very good.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

—and we can use it as a cost comparison. So I'm hoping at some point we can either bring back this witness and/or a comparable person who's going to be able to comment on the direction in which we're heading.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To digress before I speak to my motion, I would support Mr. Kramp. I think we need to come forth with some recommendations out of this so we can report them to the House. We're moving in fairly close to where we need to be, and I think there's consensus, but I'd like some written record that the House knows what we're thinking on this issue. So I would support that.

It's been two years since Justice Gomery's 19 recommendations came out of the commission of inquiry into the sponsorship activities. I brought forward a motion last week that our committee examine what's been done and what remains to be implemented, but we didn't get time to speak to it. This was a challenge Justice Gomery put out to the House. He feels unfinished business needs to be addressed. I think our committee is well suited to it. The other committee that could consider it is the ethics committee, but they are obviously backlogged with their own issues.

I think this is something we could look at, bringing forward some recommendations on what needs to be done and what has been done. It would be a good progress report for Canadians, to continue to try to restore their confidence in government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mrs. Chair.

I don't have a problem with the motion. I think it's a good idea. The only thing that is a question mark out of it—it's a parallel conversation to this, but I think it's important to this motion—is the business of the committee. Obviously the committee is an exuberant committee, it's anxious to look into many matters, and that's good. There's lots of enthusiasm. But that leaves us with a number of items to deal with.

We also have a motion coming from the Bloc, and we're going to want to make sure that we deal with that. I certainly am supportive of that motion as well.

I'm open, if need be, to having an extra meeting or two before the March break to make sure we get through the items that we're approving. I just want to make sure, as we're passing these motions, that we have the commitment from the people who are introducing them, or that as we pass them we're going to commit to having the meetings necessary to have those hearings.

Mr. Angus is suggesting in this motion three meetings, which I have no problem with. I'm not really aware of the Public Sector Integrity Canada issue. Maybe somebody can explain why that needs to be on February 26, or Mr. Moore can when that motion comes up. But I would like to see the three that are suggested by Mr. Angus. I know we've already approved one for the municipal election and the John Baird issue, and then we also have the motion from the Bloc.

I'm just looking perhaps for the assurance of the mover that as we're moving these motions we're going to make sure that we allocate those meetings. I say that, perfectly willing to sit for an extra meeting or whatever, maybe two, to make sure we do get through that before we head off to our March break.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Is there debate on Mr. Angus's motion?

Madame Bourgeois.