Evidence of meeting #2 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was positions.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
I think we do have reasonably good discussions, actually. I'm just sometimes a little more impatient than you are.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
I think it's just good that the Canadian public is made aware that there are discussions and that there is dialogue towards working at this cooperatively and collaboratively.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to come back to the subject of public servants who want to get into politics. According to your figures, 70 of the 95 public servants in that situation went for municipal politics. Have you any statistics on those who were elected and on those who were not elected?
4:30 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
No, certainly not.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
You found fault with these people because they did not comply with the deadline for submitting their application. What is this deadline? Does the application have to be submitted one or two months ahead of time?
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
No, we ask that people provide us with all the information 30 days in advance, but if possible, we try to reduce that period. Perhaps Linda could give you more details.
4:35 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
The regulation stipulates, when people submit their application, that we have 30 days. This allows us to analyze the application, which we do on a case-by-case basis, and to receive comments from the departments concerned, to determine to what extent this affects their operations.
However, in the case of municipal elections, which is a new phenomenon since the act came into force, we have been very flexible. In other words, in many cases, the period was much shorter than 30 days. We have made an effort. The departments and the authorities have also made an effort to try to reach a decision often in a much shorter time than 30 days.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Is this 30-day period a period of non-remuneration, Ms. Gobeil, or a period of 30 days before the election?
4:35 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
That depends. There are all sorts of cases. There may be some cases where people are not remunerated. But in general, people have 30 days to submit their application to us. Then we decide, given the circumstances of that particular case, whether the person should take leave without pay or not. It depends on the case, it is not always the same thing.
4:35 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
It's 30 days before becoming a candidate.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Are there rules for public servants who seek to continue working during the day and be involved in politics during the evenings?
4:35 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
There are always rules. As I said earlier, each case is studied individually. The circumstances depend on the individual's profile and also on the municipality in question. In some larger municipalities, to all intents and purposes, it is impossible to do both because the duties of municipal councillors or mayor constitutes a full-time job. All this is taken into consideration. Earlier, I mentioned the comments of the department concerned. We must determine to what extent the department can, on an operational level, accommodate these employees.
There is no magic bullet. Each case must be studied individually. In certain circumstances, people can work on a part-time basis. Obviously, I'm referring to the municipal level, because at the federal and provincial levels, once elected, employees must resign. The question does not even come up. At the municipal level, it varies, depending on the circumstances.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
You're saying that people must resign from their positions for the duration of their term in office?
4:35 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
The act is very clear in that respect: once elected, a person is no longer a public servant.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Does the 30-day rule also apply to public servants who transition from the public service to a minister's office?
4:35 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
No, this only applies to the election process.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Why are the rules different? Isn't there this replacement period which is important? Isn't there a period during which the position must continue? It's cut short.
4:35 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
That's an interesting question. The act talks about support for a political party. That's the role of a public servant who works in the political arena, but in the context of a political party. Another section of the act talks about public servants who work for the public service and in a minister's office. I don't think these sections are related.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you.
I would like to follow up on Mr. Warkentin's line of questioning. I'm not sure what I find more disturbing, that a minister would directly make a call to get a member of his staff parachuted into the public service, or that someone lower than a minister would have that power. In either case, we need to have a clearer sense.
Are you saying that a deputy minister would have the power to make a call and create a position for someone?
4:35 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
The cases we looked at in greatest detail last year involved members of the exempt staff, or members of the ministers' staff, who had positions created for them in departments that we described as soft landings so they could go back into the departments around the priority system.
When we did those investigations we did not see ministers directly involved. The exempt staffers act on behalf of the ministers because that's their role. All the appointment authorities are in the hands of the deputies. So it is up to the deputy ministers how to delegate--which ones the deputy ministers keep for themselves and which ones they don't.
From my experience, how deputy ministers and ministers' staffers and offices relate is quite individual. In some places it is only through the deputies' offices, and in other places it's another part of the organization. Those are fairly unique circumstances. So for me to generalize would be inappropriate, because we really would have to look at the individual cases.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
You've put it down to the fact that there is a vacuum in the policy framework, and you say that Treasury Board hasn't acted on your suggestions to fill that vacuum. Have you given them specific recommendations on closing this vacuum? If so, what are they?
4:40 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
We've had quite a bit of discussion with Treasury Board. The policy that was used up to this point was a leave without pay policy. That policy is a bit of a problem because it allows these kinds of actions to occur but it doesn't speak particularly to the importance of the specific directions that have to be given that any of this kind of movement has to take into account the non-partisan nature of the public service. Anyone who leaves has to be confident they will have a place they can come back to, a type of work they could come back to in the public service that wouldn't be compromised. There has to be quite a bit of specificity on how that occurs and how they come back. In a period that is less than a year, they would come back to a job, their job would be kept open. But after a year, how do they come back?
My suggestion is they come back through the priority system or through a competition so they can compete for any job. It doesn't have to be a long, complicated policy, but there has to be a clear set of expectations about how it's done.
