Government Operations Committee on April 1st, 2008

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But Treasury Board did not ask for the contract; you did.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

No, Treasury Board did ask for the project.

There are two things: there is Treasury Board and there's the secretariat. The secretariat is there to support the board. We were told there was a deadline for the project—October 1, then October 4, then October 5, and then October 15. What I said was, “Show me where it says we have to make a decision immediately.” The city said it had to be made by October 15. Frankly, I called them on it.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So that's what you looked for. You looked to see if there was a clause....

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I did not believe the city.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Did you look for a clause to see if you could get them out?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes, yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So that's why you phoned.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes, that's the only reason I asked to see the contract.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's what I figured.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

And sure enough, I hit the jackpot. It was exactly what I thought. You go with your gut, Charlie.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, obviously you do.

I guess that's the issue here, Minister, you going with your gut. It is a question of your political judgment and political prudence.

This was a municipal election. Choices had to be made carefully. As you said yourself, one way or the other you could upset the apple cart. City officials say in their internal memo of October 5 that you were the one wanting the contract. The Secretary of Treasury Board never saw the contract. Why did you not go back to city officials? Why did you take it to the media?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

It was very clear that when we.... I basically was doubting whether the city was telling me the truth because their story had changed so many times. I just said, “You know what? Show me where it says we have to decide this in the middle of an election campaign.”

We got the document. There was a black and white clause in the document that allowed a 60-day deferral if the federal government or the provincial government had not signed the contribution agreement. We explicitly, in the 600-page contract, were looking for the timeline. When we found it, we said great--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But why go to the media?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We contacted the city--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Why did you tell the media in the middle of an election rather than go back to city officials?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

And what would I go back to city officials to do?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

To say, “Listen, you've misinformed us. Can you clarify how this contract works? Can you clarify these clauses?”

You yourself said that you hit the jackpot. So you hit the jackpot and went and said to the media, “Guess what? I as minister can intervene.”

Why did you not go back to city officials?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

No, I reject your notion of intervention. It was black and white. I got advice from lawyers who were based in the Department of Justice that it was black and white, crystal clear, that it could be delayed 60 days.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You asked for the contract. You were looking for one thing. You found it. As you said, you hit the jackpot. Why did you not go back to city officials?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We contacted the city before our decision was announced.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, that's not what their internal memos say. Their internal memos say that they found out by watching CTV news that night that you had announced that you had found evidence that they could hold off the clauses.

In fact, their--

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We communicated it to the city before it was announced in the media.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

This is part of an internal memo from the City of Ottawa, dated October 10, 2006:

First let me emphasize that I regret that Minister Baird did not raise questions around the December 15 clauses directly with the City, but instead chose again to go to the media....Had the City been contacted directly, we would have clarified the difference between financial close clauses and the project's exposure to cost overruns....The media transcripts indicate that Mr. Baird has decided to apply the provisions for financial close for a use never contemplated....

So the question is simple: are you telling me that this internal memo is a lie, that these people are lying to their own staff?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'm telling you that I was told on five separate occasions that there were deadlines--ranging from October 1 to October 15--and that there was a black and white, specific....

I mean, it may not have been their idea to use that--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But that's not what I'm interested in. What I'm interested in is what I asked you--namely, why did you not go back to the city and talk to them? You say you talked to the city--