Government Operations Committee on April 1st, 2008

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Was it an hour?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

It wasn't on the motion that I know of. I asked for one additional meeting the week after the March break to hear testimony from the Minister of the Environment, John Baird. There was no time mentioned on that one.

If you can stay, we'll let Mr. Thibault ask his question. We'll let Mr. Moore ask another one if he wishes, as well as Madame Bourgeois and Mr. Angus.

Mr. Baird, will you stay for the extra questions?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll stay for an extra 15 minutes, Madam.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Monsieur Thibault.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you, Minister, for the indulgence.

You pointed out the difference between the Treasury Board Secretariat that does the analytical work and Treasury Board itself, which is composed of ministers who make the decisions. You took pride in saying that you asked difficult questions and you got to the bottom of things and did some research before you approved projects, but you had approved this project.

I see the letter from the Secretariat stating that the Treasury Board had approved this project as of December 10, so I presume that the difficult questions and due diligence by you and your colleagues as Treasury Board ministers had already been done.

Before I get to this point, I'd like to take you back. I have 13 years' experience in municipal government, as you have a lot of experience in provincial and federal.... I look at this, and I see in winter 2003 that council had approved the transit expansion. I know from experience that this would come after discussion. It wouldn't come out of thin air.

In May 2004 they announced the project. In May 2005 they signed a memorandum of understanding with Ottawa and with Ontario. Between May 2005 and August 2006 the intergovernmental working group...to oversee the city's progress at meeting the requirements set out in the MOU, the tripartite MOU.

On July 12, 2006, it awards the bid. From mid-September the Treasury Board submission is approved by Minister Cannon, so Transport Canada has looked at this project. They've done their analysis. They've submitted to you as president for approval for funding.

The mayor signs the contract on September 15, 2006. On September 28 to October 6, the Treasury Board meetings are held to approve the terms and conditions of the Ottawa light rail contribution agreement.

On October 6, the Treasury Board president, you, go out and receive the contract. On October 10, you approve the project.

Then later, because you're getting some pressure, you find this way to block it and not have the memorandum of agreement or the cost-sharing agreement signed. So you can't have the contract signed.

Now I'm going to bring you back to what you said at the beginning here. You were concerned very much with corruption. I see you have an understanding of it. I can see that one of the worst cases of corruption that I could find would be when a federal official, a minister of the crown, particularly the President of Treasury Board, would use his authority to influence another election in another jurisdiction, and that's the question we're examining here. I won't say you're guilty of it, but there are difficult questions to answer.

That appears quite relevant here. And then we have other allegations, as you well know, in which Mr. O'Brien is facing serious questions now.

Now, I know Mr. Wayne Wouters. He was my deputy minister when I was at Fisheries. I don't know him for taking quick and unconsidered decisions. I don't know him for wanting to get ahead of his ministers at Treasury Board in approving a project that they would not have approved.

So if he sent that letter on October 10, 2006, I would have to assume that Treasury Board would have gone through all of its due diligence and considerations, both at the secretariat level and at the board level. To say that this was being rammed through by council, when we see the progression from winter 2003 to the election time of November 2006, I find absolutely ludicrous and self-serving on your behalf.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Well, Mr. Thibault, I thought it was irresponsible to approve a $1 billion contract 33 days before an election, where you had a good number of members of the board of directors of the council writing to me, communicating that they didn't support the project, that there were major concerns about it. I thought it could wait for 33 days. I was misled and I acted.

Maybe it was your experience in government, sir, where the deputy ministers made the decision. At the end of the day, the Treasury Board, under my presidency, was accountable, was the one authorized to make this decision. We accepted our responsibilities and we did it.

I dare say if that type of scrutiny had taken place over the public purse, we probably wouldn't have had all the corruption under the previous government.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

The result here is that by your exchanging your judgment for the council's means there's no light rail, and they were sued by Siemens for $240 million.

I'd like to turn over the remainder of my time to Mr. Holland.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Time is up for this.

We're going to go to Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to go back to what we were discussing earlier, which is the whole decision that this would be fought out in the media. There was a fascinating interview you did with CFRA on October 5. They started the show by saying that the fact that you would be intervening had been floated out of City Hall the week before by someone who was on the Larry O'Brien campaign. That was the context in which you were being interviewed on CFRA.

Steve Madely says--and he is sort of paraphrasing the city:

And the mayor's office says that at the time, you were told not a problem. You want the contract, 600 pages, we'll get it for you. We do have, as part of that contract, as we have explained to our city councillors and to the media and all of us knew this, certain commercial limitations on what can be released. And so we have to just make sure that all of that is covered?

John Baird: That's not the message that I...heard.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I was told I couldn't have the contract initially.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, we'll get to that.

I'm looking at the city memo to you in which it clearly states that there were issues of confidentiality that you were not a part of, and if you had any issues of confidentiality you had to discuss it with them. It's here in black and white. It was written. Yet you're telling CFRA that nobody ever told you there were confidentiality issues that you couldn't release.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

No. I was told I couldn't see the contract at first, and then, under public pressure, they bowed to show me the contract. I did disclose one page of it. An official complaint was launched to the independent non-partisan officer of Parliament, the Privacy Commissioner, and she dismissed it. She was the arbiter in this case.

I have not ever received any legal.... Siemens has not contacted me, and neither has the city with respect to breaking any rule.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You had asked for the contract from Siemens, and they said they did not feel comfortable giving it to you.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I didn't ask Siemens. We asked the city.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You did ask Siemens, and they did not like this.

Let's continue the CFRA interview, because it follows with what you are trying to establish here.

John Baird: ...asked for a copy of the contract and we haven't been able to get...it.

Steve Madely: ...Mr. Baird, when did you ask for the contract?

John Baird: Earlier this week.

Steve Madely: The mayor's office says 48 hours ago.

John Baird: Yes, earlier this week.

Steve Madely: So they've committed they'll give you the contract.

John Baird: No, Steve, I've got to be honest with you. That's not...a message that's been communicated to us.

Then we go back to what was said earlier:

Steve Madely: ...the mayor [has been] trying to get you...yesterday on the phone, [and] he was told you were unavailable?

You said:

We have been told, our officials have been told they can't have a copy of the contract.

You are very clear. You were saying that in the media. Yet on the same day as you are saying this, the internal memo of the City of Ottawa says:

City Council will have heard that the President of the Treasury Board has asked to see a copy of the City's contract.... City Council can be assured that the City is moving to respond to this request as quickly as possible, as we have for every other requirement....

The City received the request for a copy...at the end of the day Tuesday, October 3. Staff had not anticipated this.... [This is an] unusual request... [but] we understand,...through the media, [your] due diligence concerns....

And he assures the city that this contract will be given to you as quickly as you had asked for it. You have used the words “misled” and “lied to” every time you have spoken about the city. Again, is this internal memo an attempt by city staff to mislead their own people? They clearly say you had asked for the contract and you were getting a copy of the contract. What you said on CFRA--

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We had asked for the contract and we were told we were not getting it.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

They said they were asked at the end of the day on October 3, and on October 5 they were assuring the city that you were getting the contract quickly.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes. I guess it's “he said, she said”.

When I got the contract, I confronted my worst fear that in fact there was a delay clause allowed in it.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

It's not “he said, she said”. I think the issue we have to contend with at committee is your political prudence, your judgment, the fact that you were looking to hit the jackpot, that you felt you hit the jackpot, and you never bothered to talk with the city.

In the media, you consistently painted the city officials as undermining, lying, and misleading, when their own documents say they were trying to respond to the request, because they didn't know what you were asking. You told them it was for due diligence, when clearly you were telling us you were looking for the one clause to intervene with this contract.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That was part exactly of my due diligence, to confirm that there was a date.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That was your own personal due diligence. Again, as minister in this very politicized government.... You were acting in that role, not in the role of defending the taxpayers. You were acting in a role on your own.

I don't know what else we can do at this committee with this case. But on the record, I have serious questions about your political judgment and your prudence as a most trusted minister of the Prime Minister--and that's what the President of the Treasury Board has to be.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I have to maintain the confidence of the House of Commons, and I am pleased to tell you that I still have it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Moore, did you have one more question?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

No. Looking at the clock, it's now a quarter after, and the minister said he would be here until a quarter after, so we're out of time as I see the clock.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Ms. Bourgeois, do you have any other questions?