Government Operations Committee on April 1st, 2008

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Baird.

I would like to follow on from what my colleague was asking about the contract for the light rail transit project. You said earlier that your decision to intervene was fair and just. From reading the memos provided by the City, we know that there had been a good working relationship between Transport Canada and Infrastructure Canada for a number of years. Both of these bodies are experts in managing large infrastructure projects.

As President of the Treasury Board, what is your expertise in this field?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I sat as a member of the management board of the Ontario cabinet for three years, where we dealt with a wide range of issues. I've been a cabinet minister now for six and a half years. I've been an elected official for 13 years. I have worked in over 16 departments as a student, a political aide, a parliamentary secretary, and a minister. I was the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Finance for two years, where I carried more than 13 pieces of financial legislation. I was parliamentary secretary to the chair of the management board in Ontario, where I dealt with many issues with respect to this. So I'd say I have a pretty good amount of experience.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Very well. What you are saying is that, in spite of the work carried out by the municipal council and its infrastructure committee, in spite of the approval process that was followed—over the course of the past three years, the project was approved at 13 different stages—, and in spite of the good working relations between Transport Canada and Infrastructure Canada, both of whom worked closely with the City of Ottawa, when you evaluated the project, you simply dismissed out of hand all of the analysis and work that had been done.

Are you telling us that you made a political decision to intervene based on your experience and that, in one fell swoop, you rejected all of the analysis that had been provided over a three year period by experts from Transport Canada, Infrastructure Canada and the City?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Ms. Faille.

We'll go to Mr. Moore.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Can I respond?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

If you'd like to answer I will let you, but we are well over time.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

You said that decisions were made on the project. No government agency, other than Treasury Board, has the authority to make a decision on a project of this scope. The city was made aware on the day of the announcement, in its memorandum of understanding, that the decision on the project would be made by a cabinet committee, the Treasury Board. I did not choose to get involved. This issue was brought before me in that context. We're not a rubber-stamp agency. That's how we had the sponsorship scandal. When money went astray and everything ran amok at the bureaucratic and political levels, we promised to be aware of accountability and we delivered it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Mr. Baird.

Now we'll go to Mr. Moore.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

We only have a couple of minutes, because I know the minister is scheduled to be here for only an hour, as per the schedule. There are two things I want to talk about. One is what Charlie was talking about in his round of questions: communications between the city and the federal government.

Réjean Chartrand, who was the light rail project manager, confirmed that the price of the project would remain fixed until December 14. He said that if the contract was awarded then by the new council there would be “little exposure”, meaning financial and legal exposure. He said that on October 11, 2006, at a city council meeting. He also said that the contract was never intended to be viewed by the federal government, and the fact that the federal government saw it threw them off in some ways.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

He has basically backed up every single thing I have said. The contract was not meant to be seen by the federal government. I was told five times that there were different deadlines when penalties would kick in: October 1, October 4, October 5, and October 15. At some point I said, “This is ridiculous. Show me in writing. Show me in black and white.” They never intended for me to see that contract, because the moment I saw it I knew I had caught them in a lie. When he went before city council and acknowledged that, it backed up every single thing I had said.

I was told there was a huge rush, we had to sign this, and if we didn't there would be an immediate $60 million to $80 million penalty, when in fact the contract itself explicitly allowed, exactly and precisely, for this purpose. If the federal contribution agreement wasn't signed, there could be a 60-day delay.

It's regrettable that I was misled. I don't apologize for asking the tough questions. I didn't get elected to be Mr. Nice Guy and try to get along with everyone. I got elected to fight for taxpayers, to fight for every single taxpayer's dollar. I got elected on a principal agenda of accountability. I was appointed by the Prime Minister to be President of the Treasury Board and be Mr. Accountability--to ask the difficult questions that hadn't been asked for a generation in this town.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

The bells mean it's 10 o'clock and we're almost out of time, so I'll finish where I began--a sort of “damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of a thing”.

I can only imagine what would be thrown at you in question period today if you, as the Minister of the Treasury Board, had ignored your officials and the recommendations, plowed ahead, and delivered immediate cash, ignoring the rules, for a light rail project in your riding, in spite of the fact that there was a municipal campaign and 85% of Ottawa voters voted for candidates who were opposed to this project. They would say, “You're ignoring the rules. You're ignoring the will of the people.” Instead, what did you do? You recognized the rules and allowed city council itself to decide the future of the project, and you're being criticized for that. This is a very bizarre situation.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

This was a move that empowered taxpayers. It let the voters decide, and they made their decision.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Monsieur Thibault is next for five minutes.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair. We're out of time here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

The bells for the House have nothing to do with the committee.

Mr. Thibault is next on the list. I believe Mr. Angus also wants to ask another question, as well as Madame Bourgeois.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair. I know you're on Liberal time and there's Conservative time, but we're--

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It's my point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Will Mr. Baird stay for a few more questions?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

The committee asked me to stay for an hour and it's been an hour, Madam.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We didn't ask you for an hour.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Yes. That's the motion, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We asked you to come for two hours, and you notified us that you might have just an hour. But if you wish to stay and answer a few more questions, I think it would be very much appreciated by the committee.