Evidence of meeting #25 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christiane Ouimet  Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau

We have quorum, therefore we will start the meeting.

We will have the first hour with the commissioner, who is responsible for the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, Madame Christiane Ouimet, accompanied by the deputy commissioner, Wayne Watson; and general counsel Joe Friday.

Ms. Ouimet, we generally allocate about 10 minutes for presentations and then we move on to questions. We have about one hour for your testimony because there are other items on the agenda. Congratulations on your appointment.

You have the floor, Ms. Ouimet.

9:05 a.m.

Christiane Ouimet Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Good morning and thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I am very pleased to appear this morning, accompanied by my colleagues, before the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

It has been almost a year since I appeared before your Committee for the review of my candidacy for the role of Canada’s first Public Sector Integrity Commissioner. I would like to say once again that I was honoured to receive your confidence after that appearance. We have been working hard since my appointment to build this new institution while fulfilling our responsibilities.

This morning, if the committee members are in agreement, I would like to take you briefly through my mandate, the approach and steps taken to fulfill that mandate, the challenges faced in establishing a new office and some discussion of our budget.

I'd like to begin by telling you who we are and why we were established, for the benefit of members who were not here a year ago when I first appeared before this committee. And I always like to turn to the preamble of the legislation, the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, the legislation that created my office last year.

It expressly recognizes the essential role of the federal public administration in Canadian democracy, and this is really important. It underscores the importance, from a public interest perspective, of maintaining and enhancing confidence in the integrity of public servants and in public institutions. And this is the way I like to describe the role, in addition, of course, to implementing a disclosure process and protection against reprisal. These principles of enhancing confidence and serving the public interest are the solid foundation upon which I've established my office and which guides our day-to-day work.

Under the act, very specifically, the office is charged with receiving and investigating allegations of wrongdoing in the public sector. When wrongdoing is found, we inform the head of the relevant department or agency, provide recommendations for corrective action, and we also table a report in Parliament.

The act is very clear. It specifically prohibits reprisals against public servants and charges us with protecting those public servants from reprisals.

The jurisdiction extends to 400,000 public sector employees. This is a very large mandate. We can also receive complaints of wrongdoing from the public. Security agencies such as CSIS, CSE, and the armed forces do not fall within our jurisdiction, but they do have their own internal systems.

I'd like now to provide you with more details on both the disclosure and the reprisal components of my mandate, to give you a clearer idea of how we can enhance confidence in public institutions while supporting strong governance at the federal level.

The act defines wrongdoing as follows: a contravention of any act of Parliament or any provincial legislature; a misuse of public funds or a public asset; a gross mismanagement; an act or omission that creates substantial danger to the life, health, or safety of persons, or to the environment; a serious breach of a code of conduct; or knowingly directing or counselling a person to commit any of these identified wrongdoings.

Under the act, though, there are safeguards to ensure there is no duplication. And I have the discretion to determine on a case-by-case basis whether an investigation is warranted. For instance, if it were more appropriate to refer the matter to another procedure provided under an act of Parliament, or if the disclosure was not made in good faith, we would of course refuse to investigate.

When we do launch an investigation, we use the combined expertise and experience of my staff, careful judgment, legal analysis, and sound investigative techniques to try to come to the best resolution in each case. The act requires--and this is very important--that we conduct our investigations as informally and expeditiously as possible. Of course the principles of natural justice and procedural fairness must be respected. In addition, and very importantly, our investigations are confidential. And what guides us throughout our work will be acting in the public interest.

The second aspect of my mandate, and one that is related to but distinct from the disclosure process, is the protection of public servants who come forward to disclose wrongdoing—people sometimes known as whistleblowers. This is an innovative and important step on the part of Parliament. In fact, we are the first in Canada, as well as in the world, to combine all the responsibilities and powers entrusted to my office.

A key feature of the Act is that it absolutely prohibits reprisals against any person who makes an allegation of wrongdoing in good faith or anyone who has cooperated in an investigation. We have exclusive jurisdiction in such matters.

I feel it is important to examine the definition of the term “reprisal”. The Act defines a reprisal as a disciplinary measure, demotion, termination of employment, anything that adversely affects employment or working conditions, or a threat to take any of these measures.

When a complaint of reprisal is presented to us, I decide whether or not an investigation is warranted. I may send the complaint to conciliation or dismiss it. The Act provides me with the discretion to refuse to deal with a complaint when, for example, the complaint was made in bad faith or if it is beyond my jurisdiction.

Again, as in the case of wrongdoing, the investigation is to be conducted informally and expeditiously. I also have the authority to apply to the newly created Public Servants Disclosure Protection Tribunal for an order for remedial or disciplinary actions.

This reprisal mandate that has been given to my Office is a powerful and important one, and it underscores that protecting public servants who make honest and well-intentioned disclosures of wrongdoing is fundamental to good governance, and also to confidence in our public institutions.

I've spoken about the specifics of our mandate, but I also would like to stress our approach to how we interpret and fulfill our mandate. How we do our job is as important as what the job is. Our office is about integrity, not just breaches of integrity. We have a bias in favour of prevention over investigation. We've already been quite proactive in our communications and education and about who we are and what we want to do. We build on existing ethics foundation work in partnership with parliamentarians, chief executives, unions, managers, and employees to promote prevention, to encourage confidence, and to discourage wrongdoing.

When I first took office and when I appeared before this committee, as well as through a message to all parliamentarians that I sent the first week on the job, August 6, I indicated I would consult broadly on how to fulfill my mandate. I am very pleased to report that I've had more than 70 bilateral discussions—and my office has had more than 80 group meetings—with Parliament, experts in Canada and around the world, with former and current chief executives, people from all levels, and also the private sector. Also, I was reminded by the high interest of the Parliament that we also should include the regions in that consultation, which I was very pleased to do.

One unique message across Canada that I got from those consultations, as well as from my own thinking, is that prevention is absolutely a shared responsibility, and it becomes a core piece of our mandate. We will continue to do our part to educate and communicate with public servants, but we'll also be seeking the advice of this committee and all parliamentarians as we go forward.

I would also like to mention—and it is something that I mentioned last time I appeared before this committee—that we'd like to look as much as possible into how we can integrate alternative dispute resolution, such as mediation, into our operations and processes.

This gives you a general sense of how we approach the work. Of course I'll be tabling my first annual report in a few weeks, we hope, and you will have more details on where we are. We are completing the analysis, but perhaps now I'll say just a few words on the establishment of the office.

Creating a new organization is a challenge, be it in the business, private, or government sector, and certainly my office was no exception. With the establishment of this new institution we needed to interpret legislation and develop guidelines for disclosures and complaints of reprisals at the same time as we were recruiting staff, setting up offices, and putting basic systems and processes into place. One unique challenge is that we're operating in a brand new field of law, with many unknowns. Each decision has the potential to be precedent-setting.

At the same time, the act in many ways prescribes very short deadlines during which decisions and reports have to be made. So in fact we had the dual task of creating the new organization and at the same time operating it.

Another challenge--and this was very important for our organization--was to design the right governance and accountability structures. We wanted to become a model in those same internal management accountability practices that we were created to promote and that we believe are essential for the whole public sector.

Certainly I must confess the experience has made me acutely aware of the unique challenges facing small organizations, which have the same reporting obligations as larger organizations but may not have the expertise or the capacity. Because we're a small organization and because there's a shortage of experts, we decided to use shared services for human resources, information technology, and financial services.

I'm very pleased to report that we did create the new organization. We staffed it with highly competent core people. We defined its mission and values and put management procedures into place, and we opened our doors for business in less than four months.

Having established who we are and what we do and confirming with this committee that we're now fully operational as Canada's newest agent to Parliament, I would like to now turn to the main estimates.

Our budget is $6.5 million. I believe this is adequate, at this stage, to meet our needs and build capacity. It is very difficult to estimate our workload. In the future, we will receive a number of requests for information, disclosures and complaints of reprisal.

From the outset, I realized that there was a great deal of confusion about our mandate, namely about what we are and what we are not. However, I plan, after our first three years of operation—our budget is allocated equally over the next three years—, to conduct a thorough analysis of the trends observed, to establish a business case for the future that is based on facts and experience and to provide a more accurate sense of the resources required.

It is truly an honour and a privilege to appear before you today. The responsibility given to me by Parliament is a very important one and I take it very seriously. I bring to the position not only my many years of experience as a public servant--more than 25 years--but also my deep and abiding respect for the public service and Parliament. I consider it an honour to be able to serve as Canada's first Commissioner of Public Service Integrity.

Madam Chair, I welcome your questions and those of the members.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau

Thank you very much.

We will go first to Mr. Mario Silva.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the commissioner and her staff for the work they're doing and for being here before this committee. It's important that this committee is also reassured--and I think in some ways you have already done that today--that you have the proper financial and staff resources, and you feel that the mechanisms and safeguards are in place to allow you to carry out your work in an effective way.

That is my first question. I think you've answered it, but I want to make sure that is correct. Can you elaborate on whether there are any additional resources you may need to carry out your duties?

9:15 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Christiane Ouimet

Thank you very much for the question. It is a very important one, because in my new role as agent of Parliament there has to be some independence, not only in how decisions are made and how we operate in a quasi-judicial environment, but also from a financial perspective. We cannot be at the mercy of insufficient resources. So I'm very grateful for that.

I've already met with the Speaker of the House, Mr. Peter Milliken, who is heading a panel that deals with similar issues in relation to all agents of Parliament. I did not have an opportunity to appear before him because I did not have specific requests, but I will use the opportunity to ascertain before this panel and before this committee, once we've determined the more specific needs, any area that may require some assistance. I'm very grateful for the opportunity.

My last comment is on the capacity of small organizations and the importance of having access to shared services. It is very onerous for a small organization, yet we want to meet the standards that are expected by Parliament and other public sector organizations. It remains a challenge, but I think we have the seeds of the solution, and I'm grateful for that.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

I don't disregard the fact that you have an important challenge. It's one of the reasons we want to make sure this office is fully supported.

Part of your mandate is really the whole issue of accountability--how public money is accountable, and how the civil service is operating. The framework around accountability is so important. What measurements do you have in place? What have you set up to deal with the whole issue of accountability in the civil service?

9:15 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Christiane Ouimet

That is a very good question indeed. When we set up office we put in place some measurements, statistical data, and some systems to be able to capture it. We're at a very early stage, because the vast majority of cases that have been referred to our office do not fall within our jurisdiction. But we want to look at what is being done in other organizations of similar size.

We have to take into consideration that some of the indicators, such as length and number of investigations.... I used to be at the Immigration and Refugee Board, and at one point we had a backlog of 55,000 cases. So the relativity of the numbers was very different, as opposed to a small organization building up capacity. In fact, my deputy commissioner has been charged with the responsibility of developing performance indicators, and we will have the basic data in our first annual report. Certainly our first objective is to have very clear procedures and a reasonable length of time to deal with the specific cases, and of course the quality of our decisions is absolutely crucial.

So we have the basic systems in place, but I think over the years we'll be a little more definitive.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Is it an internal program? Are you looking in the private sector for programs to deal with the statistical measurements for accountability? Is there something that you're looking to purchase or that you have in place?

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Christiane Ouimet

In fact, we've developed our own.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

You've developed your own.

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Christiane Ouimet

It's in-house, because it's relatively modest. We had the basic system in place. We will be looking at something a little more sophisticated if need be, but given the numbers, I think it's adequate for the time being.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Is there something comparable in the private sector, or in different provincial governments throughout the country, so that you can compare that statistical analysis work you're doing with how they're doing, to see if it's on the right track? I trust that you're doing a great job and things are working well, but two or three years down the road you could find that the work was not done the way it should have been done. I just want to make sure you have done a comparative analysis with other markets out there to see if it's working well.

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Christiane Ouimet

This is a very important question, because you have to build a solid foundation with respect to collection of data.

I would go back to the extensive analysis I did when I was at the Immigration and Refugee Board. Given the magnitude of the mandate, what exists in the private sector in Ontario, and the number of cases we have, a model that is quite interesting is the one at the Human Rights Commission. It has more similarities. In fact, we have just started to get our IT services from the Human Rights Commission, and we will be looking at their model in more detail. But in the meantime, given that we're handling roughly 200 inquiries, roughly 80 cases that need a little more analysis, and approximately half a dozen cases.... In fact, my deputy commissioner and I, and my management team, went one by one to ensure that the data was accurate with respect to what we were going to table in Parliament.

I can assure you that our basic structure, basic data, is accurate, but we will make sure we build on that foundation based on what's available. We'll probably look at some provinces that have similar challenges as well.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Good.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau

Thank you very much.

Madame Bourgeois.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Ms. Ouimet. Good morning, gentlemen.

I gather from your presentation that this has been a very busy year with the establishment of the office. Have you started dealing with inquiries from public servants?

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

How many cases have you dealt with to date?

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Christiane Ouimet

I indicated that the vast majority of files were outside our jurisdiction. We received approximately 200 requests for information. In 80 of these cases, we conducted a bit more research. Even though some of these cases are not within our jurisdiction, we try to point them in the right direction, towards the organization that can deal with them.

There is a great deal of confusion about what is in the public interest and what is in the private interest. Many people have submitted matters that are private in nature. In addition, about six very complex files required very in-depth research. We are presently working on those while awaiting the tabling of the annual report.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

With due regard for confidentiality, could you give me a few examples of cases outside your jurisdiction?

9:25 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Christiane Ouimet

Some files dealt with grievances, some were related to competitions, reclassifications and working conditions. There were also some possibly involving a very serious allegation of harassment, but that is outside the scope of our mandate. I repeat that we must always remind those making a disclosure that, even in the case of a reprisal, it must be related to a disclosure.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

On page 4 of your text, under “Establishment of the Office”, you state: “One unique challenge is that we are operating in a whole new field of law and policy, with many unknowns; each decision has the potential to be precedent-setting.”

Do you have the authority to make a distinction between political power and the work of public servants? I have some concerns about this.

9:25 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Christiane Ouimet

The Act defines our area of jurisdiction in terms of wrongdoing as defined by the legislation. There are 400,000 public servants subject to this Act. The public sector is somewhat larger on the English side.

As you undoubtedly know, conflicts of interest, governor in council appointments and elected members do not fall within our jurisdiction. They are the responsibility of Ms. Mary Dawson. Our work deals with the operations of the public service.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

That means that you have no authority in matters associated with the political staff in a minister's office, for example.

Therefore, could we use your services if a member of the public service could prove that a minister or parliamentarian interfered in a given decision-making process? Could the public servant turn to you?

9:25 a.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Christiane Ouimet

Ms. Dawson retains the authority to deal with conflicts of interest. Our role is to apply the Act in cases of wrongdoing.