Government Operations Committee on April 29th, 2008

[Jody Thomas]

We have just undertaken a large study of our operations bureau, which is where the majority of our people work, to compare their salaries to other departments. We looked at CBSA, CIC, and the firearms centre because they all do similar work in terms of identifying people and issuing a permit or a document of some nature, and we do pay less.

What we're going to do about that is the subject of much discussion. But it is very chicken and egg. The passport fee does have a ceiling, and we have to make significant capital investment at the same time. You can reduce costs in a number of ways, but how we're going to do it is not an easy decision to come to.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I don't envy the position you're in, because I do recognize that.

My questions are just on the broader scheme. If in fact this is happening, if there is an analysis being undertaken—and obviously there is—maybe if you could provide us with some of that information as it becomes available to you, you'd assist us in our analysis of the issue with regard to turnover within the entire civil service. We're just concerned about the massive turnover across the civil service at large, because even if they're going into an area where they're trained, there are also costs for people to be moved in and out. Even though the training might be relevant, there are additional costs that you're incurring and other departments are as well.

So thank you very much for coming, and please do provide us with any updates.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Ms. Faille, you have five minutes.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I want to come back to Mr. Warkentin's reasoning regarding the fee structures.

What legislation is Passport Canada subject to with regard to the fee structure? In fact, it must comply with Treasury Board regulations. A number of departments are undergoing reviews of the fees that they charge the public in order to process their file. I don't know when you are going to have the next review of your fee structure, but when it happens, you will have to table cost models. For a number of years now, a passport has cost $87.

[Gérald Cossette]

The fee structure is regulated by various frameworks, including the User Fee Act. In accordance with that legislation, Passport Canada cannot increase fees without first holding public consultations. We cannot unfreeze the cap imposed on us. There are also various chapters of the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Passport Order. The fees imposed on Canadians are set according to a series of legislative provisions.

Our funding model is quite specific. We know how much of that $62 goes to salaries, technology, investment, capital and so forth. This model provides quite a rigorous description of the fee structure. It's quite easy for us to demonstrate how much a passport would cost if improvements were made, among other things.

We are not making a profit; the $62 covers the passport costs. The financial statements show that on a multi-year basis, expenditures and revenues generated by passports balance each other out.

Over the past few years, we have made a profit due to the delay in service delivery. We naturally accumulated funds. Last year, when the fiscal year ended, we had a backlog of over 300,000 files. Obviously, the funds were registered that year, but the expenditure was only made the following year. As a result, our reserve fund is quite significant.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Was your current reserve fund allocated to the Consolidated Revenue Fund, or to a distinct fund?

[Gérald Cossette]

No, to a working capital fund.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Okay.

[Gérald Cossette]

We have a working capital fund and we keep the funding.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Okay.

You talked earlier about security. How many counterfeited Canadian passports have you intercepted? Could you tell us about the technology used or provide us with this information later?

For the past 15 years we have been working on files concerning security. What do you think about the technology being used? There has been international pressure to ensure that the passports are valid for a 10-year period.

If we want to increase security, it's because the number of counterfeit passports has increased.

[Gary McDonald]

That's not the only reason. We mustn't forget the events of September 11, 2001. Since the attack on New York, overall security has been reinforced. Identity management systems are even more important today than they were seven or eight years ago. We must also recognize that the new electronic passport, the e-passport, was created to add... fraud and counterfeiters are nothing new. Since the technology is constantly changing, documentation must be subject to heightened security.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Okay.

Who provides the technology for passports? We have to increase passport security. Could you tell us how many Canadian passports have been intercepted?

How many Canadians abroad were denied a passport? How long does it take to process a passport request by Canadians outside Canada? Services in Canada have improved but for somebody who lives in Florida and who is applying delays are abnormally long. It is even worse in other countries.

Could you give us an overview of the situation?

[Gérald Cossette]

We will find out about the number of counterfeit passports. Those figures are compiled by the Canadian Border Services Agency, since that is the agency intercepting counterfeit passports at the border.

We have also made the commitment to publishing in our annual report figures regarding security, the number of passports lost or stolen in circulation, etc. so that people can understand the scope of the problem. It's the same thing with regard to the number of refusals. We refuse to issue a passport for all kinds of reasons that are often related to security, such as the safety of children, for example.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I imagine that there are consular services and that they cost money. A Canadian who is stranded abroad and to whom you don't want to issue a passport, for example would, as a Canadian, be entitled to consular services. What would those services cost? How many people find themselves in that situation?

[Gérald Cossette]

In the case of Canadians living abroad who need a travel document, if we don't issue a passport, we can issue a one-way travel document. It is, in fact, possible to issue a document allowing them to come back to Canada.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Even for security reasons?

[Gérald Cossette]

For security reasons, we allow them to come to Canada. If there are other security grounds preventing them from travelling, our decision is based on the information provided by our partners.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

How much are those people costing us? At present, how many people are you refusing to issue a passport to for security reasons? There is clearly at least one. The Globe and Mail newspaper referred today to a Canadian citizen. Could you give us the figures please?

[Gérald Cossette]

The number of passports refused for national security reasons—

[Gary McDonald]

There are three per month.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

We have to pay a minimum of consular services for these people who are abroad, I imagine. Is that not true? They are Canadians, so it's our problem.

[Gérald Cossette]

There are three individuals in Canada to whom we have refused a passport for national security reasons. The refusal of a passport based on such grounds is done by the minister and not by Passport Canada. That is a decision that comes from the political sphere.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I have a couple of questions in accordance with the concerns of Mr. Cardin and many other members.

With the utilization of Service Canada and additions to help speed up the procedure, as members of Parliament we should ideally be doing fewer and fewer passports; I'm doing more and more, so something is wrong with this equation.

If you think Service Canada is the bailout, it's not working, and it's not working for several reasons. Service Canada has made a dramatic movement away from personal service. The only way you're going to deal with Service Canada is either by an appointment or by e-mail. If you walk in now and just expect to be served, it doesn't happen. As such, that is not a viable alternative to being able to provide good service. They still end up coming back to our offices to get personal service. All you do there now is go in and pick up an application; they're an application source. That's it. They either don't have the training, don't have the staff, or don't have the manpower, and they are not servicing the public.

In our office--and it's the same for many other members of Parliament--I have had over ten passport clinics in addition this year alone, simply to handle the demand and the expectation. For some of my other colleagues it's more so.

If we are supposed to be having less and less of a load on our members' offices, if that's the determining goal, I have one full-time staff person who deals just with passports, and that should not be the case. If that's going to be the case and we have to have some procedures to say it's one of our major responsibilities, perhaps so, but I would honestly think that this should be at arm's length. We should be there for either an emergency or for difficult situations, not for business as usual. We are becoming--and we have been and still are--a business-as-usual location. Somehow we've got to get beyond that.

I want to bring that to your attention, because the problem has not been solved from that perspective. Demand on me and on my colleagues has not dropped for passports. Are you aware of that reality, or is this just new news to you?

[Gérald Cossette]

We are, in the sense that not all Service Canada offices provide passport services. That is the first challenge. Service Canada has about 320 offices across the country, but only 100 of them provide the service. In some constituencies, you're absolutely right: the service is not provided by Service Canada.