Government Operations Committee on April 29th, 2008

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

If we were to go to a ten-year passport, how would it affect the cost of the passport? How much would it cost an individual Canadian to apply, and how would it affect the profitability of Passport Canada? You must have looked into some of these questions.

[Gérald Cossette]

There are two issues here. There's the issue of the e-passport—the electronic passport with the chip is more expensive. The chip itself costs $15 to $21 more, just for the chip and the transfer of information. We need the software and the infrastructure to do that. So there's an issue related to a new document, the document itself.

There's also the issue of a significant reduction in the number of applications, because you keep your passport for a ten-year period. We've done some calculations. We're trying to improve our internal processes so that we become more efficient. If there were an increase in the cost of the passport, the increase would be as little as possible, bearing in mind that we would be saving on the improvement. That's why we're moving toward more online services, more electronic tools to do some of the work we're doing right now. We want to keep the services at the present level, even though in the long run we're looking at a significant reduction in revenue.

It's impossible to say one for one. It would be double or half, depending how efficient we become over time. But in the long run, it would require a significant change in the way we do business.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Right. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

With respect to the cost comparisons, I'm not sure about the other countries, but the U.S. issues a passport for ten years.

[Gary McDonald]

Those are all ten-year passports, actually.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

They're all ten-year passports, the prices you gave. Ours is five years, so that changes the dynamic a little bit.

I'm going to ask you a question. You said that you were able to integrate 1,400 new employees over the past fiscal year. Where were those employees located? In what parts of the country did you bring in these employees? Can you give us a breakdown?

[Gérald Cossette]

Madam Chair, I cannot give you a breakdown in terms of where the new people went. I can give you a breakdown of where people are, but we could provide you with the numbers in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I'd be interested to know whether the bulk of those would be in Montreal or Ottawa, because we know that those are high turnover areas for federal employees. That's why I was asking you that.

Also, when you make a decision as to where you're going to locate these employees, do you look at other models? You said there's been a complaint that you tend to train employees and they go on to other departments, and then you're sort of the trainers for the government.

So when you decide to increase your staff, do you look at other models? Do you look at other areas of the country where the turnover is very low? Do you consider that in your decision-making?

[Gérald Cossette]

The new employees who were hired were distributed across the country from coast to coast, because we moved from not having evening shifts anywhere to having evening shifts in 31 out of our 33 offices. So in most places, in fact we had to hire new people.

In terms of why we located people where we did, again, it was based on demand. For instance, look at what happened last year in Edmonton. On some days in Edmonton they had more than 1,000 people showing up at the office. There were long lineups. So we looked at where the demand was coming from and we beefed up the capacity of these offices to deliver on the demand.

In terms of other models and why we would not locate offices in smaller centres, one of our main challenges as we speak is to move the mail around. Right now when somebody applies in Toronto, for instance, if we do not process the file in Toronto we ship it physically somewhere else. Last year the postal costs for Passport Canada amounted to $34 million. Twelve percent of our budget goes to postal fees.

As we move forward with new technology that would allow us to move the files electronically instead of physically, the issue of the location of the office becomes less relevant. Right now, because close to 80% of applicants show up at offices, offices are located close to the people. As we move toward an electronic system where the location of the processing centre becomes irrelevant, we could decentralize toward smaller centres. But right now, decentralization means a significant cost in postage fees, because we're moving the files physically.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You talk about a significant cost in postal fees, except that also includes your cost to send that passport to the individual, priority post, and because the number of passports was so high, of course your costs would be a lot higher. It's not just moving the applications from one centre to the other. You can do those in batches. Part of your high mailing costs is actually for returning them to the people who've applied. So I'm not sure how much of an excuse that gives you to not locate issuing offices in other regions. I will grant you that when it's all electronic, it will make it much sooner.

I asked you that question because there are models in terms of hiring employees in parts of the country where it's incredibly stable, where other agencies of Canada do it and do very well. I'll give you an example. Veterans Affairs in Kirkland Lake is a good example. They're located in an area.... I would guarantee you that those employees do not leave their jobs there. Training them is really an investment, because you can keep training them and they do more and more. I'm wondering if you have considered that kind of office, a satellite office where they actually can issue passports.

I'm not sure I totally believe you about how costly it is to ship from one area to a processing office when you're sending the big batches. I think your other costs are related more to the passport going to the individual.

I don't mind challenging you, because I've been doing passports through my office for twenty years, and they were done before, and I understand all the machinations of the passport business, believe me. So I'm going to let you try to answer this one.

[Gérald Cossette]

In answer to your first question, Madame Chair, passports are not printed at the passport office. Only urgent passports are printed on the spot. All other passports are printed in Mississauga or in Gatineau. So the fact that you have an office on the spot doesn't mean you get your passport from that office. Most of the printing is being done in print centres. That's the only way we can basically maximize our investment. We may have one or two printers at the local office to do urgent and emergency passports; all the others are mailed from the two print centres. So there is a significant cost associated with that. But as I said, even if you had a local office, that cost remains.

In terms of looking at whether or not we could decentralize the services, the answer is yes. There are other models. We could locate processing in large centres like Montreal, and so on. As I said, though, for the time being our passport processing places are located close to the customers, because people apply in person.

As the applications are processed and circulated electronically more and more, then it becomes possible to give you a very specific example. Some countries have a system where the processing officers just get the application from a computer, regardless of where the application was submitted. So as we move toward an electronic environment, that becomes an option.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Madame Chair.

I appreciate all the comments raised before, and I recognize the progress that's been made by Passport Canada. I know in my own constituency we've noticed the processing times have certainly been reduced significantly from when we first met the challenge a year ago today. I think we're hearing from our constituents that the average wait times have gone from three or four months to three or four weeks.

But there are still some frustrations—and I'll use this opportunity to raise some of them—that there really are different levels of service. I heard the concerns about remote areas of the country and rural areas, but I think that concern also exists in mid-size to small towns. In my riding in the city of Barrie, there are 135,000 people, and I know that cities of that size also face similar frustrations. If folks are not going to do it at their MP's office, they're going to have to drive to the closest major urban city, which for us is Toronto. And many people, who work at jobs that restrict their ability to take an afternoon or a day off, find renewing their passports very frustrating.

I asked my office staff, who deal with passports.... We probably get about a hundred requests a week for passports, so it's one of our number one issues that we face from constituents. One of the concerns my office staff have is that Passport Canada has discontinued that MP helpline, which they could call to speak to a live person. I was told that now it's just an answering machine, but they said it was very helpful previously.

Could you start off by letting me know why that service was discontinued, and what hope there is that it will start up again?

[Jody Thomas]

I don't think it's been discontinued. That's not been done. I'll check into it and get back to you.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I just got an update today that this is one of our greatest frustrations. I know in my office we get a hundred requests a week, and my staff said it was very, very helpful to have a live person. They said they can no longer get a live person on the MP helpline.

[Jody Thomas]

The live person could be on the other phone. They could be on the line, and the call goes to the voice message. But I'll find out what's going on. I know it has not been discontinued, and if we need to expand it, we'll look into doing that.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

It sounds as if that would be the case.

The other thing I want to ask about is whether Passport Canada has given any thought to.... I know you made mention about rural and remote areas and the efforts you make there. Has there been any thought about what to do in areas of the country that are an hour or more away from a servicing centre or a Passport Canada office like Gatineau or Mississauga? What can we do to expedite processing times for communities that do not have a Passport Canada office?

[Gérald Cossette]

Part of the short-term strategy is to work with Service Canada. Service Canada has 101 outlets where they provide passport services, and Canada Post has 56 outlets where they provide passport services. We would like to expand the network of Service Canada outlets where passport services are provided. We are in the process of doing that. We're working with them on criteria, and so on, based on volume and demand.

When we're talking about remote areas, it's not the notion of remote areas; it's whether or not you're close enough to a passport office or an existing Service Canada office. We want to significantly increase the number of Service Canada outlets. On top of that, we would like a fair number of those outlets to provide services for authentication of documents so people can keep their documents and not have to submit them to Passport Canada and wait until their passports are issued.

We are also moving--hopefully fairly rapidly--toward full online service. We started with simplification of the renewal process and other policies to allow us in the medium term to let Canadians apply fully online--those who are renewing, not those who are applying for the first time. By removing that workload from Passport Canada, we can basically divert that capacity toward first-time applicants.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

One thing I try to explain to constituents who are frustrated by the process is how we have to be careful that the right people get passports, because there would be a security concern if they were given out too lightly. Maybe you could explain that for the committee a little bit more. Is there a black market globally for people who are trying to get Canadian passports? What are the security concerns around that, and how valuable are Canadian passports?

[Gary McDonald]

There's no doubt that migration patterns and illegal migration are problems everywhere in the world. Our processes are almost entirely identity related. Is the person applying a citizen and therefore entitled to a passport? When a person is claiming an identity, does that identity actually belong to them? Almost our entire process is geared toward making those confirmations. As I mentioned earlier, there are fraudsters, criminals, and those who are constantly trying to beat the system. So it's certainly a challenge to us.

One of the challenges with Canadian passports is that they give a relatively high level of visa-free travel and access. Canadians benefit from that. If I remember correctly, we're the third-highest country in the world in terms of being able to travel without having to obtain visas. There's always going to be that stress and demand. Our primary role is to provide good service to your average Canadian who just wants to go on their holiday, but we have to be extremely vigilant on the security side and make sure we're not giving passports to people who aren't entitled to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Mr. Cardin and Ms. Faille, you have the floor.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you very much.

There are so many things to talk about, but I'll try to be brief.

Every year in my office, at least two people deal with passports. Passport Canada is well run. It works well, especially considering the challenges you had to deal with in the past 10 years. I have seen that. We make excellent spokespeople for Passport Canada. You mentioned the Post Office; we handle pretty much the same volume of passports. We send them to you.

Your goals of course include developing the Service Canada side of things. The fact remains that Service Canada is a different entity. So you will have to enter into official agreements. In some regions, the line between Service Canada and a Passport Canada office is going to be rather tenuous. Furthermore, they're going to be working for you. Obviously, there are issues of physical accommodations, among other things, to be considered. I would like you to take a careful look at the situation in Sherbrooke. We will surely have another opportunity to talk about that.

The issue of Canada Post receiving agents is another kettle of fish. That entails added costs. When Canada Post took that task on, people went to their offices, and when they found out that they had to pay $15, they decided to turn to their member of Parliament. So you contributed to my office's intake. Taken together, I would say that as far as my riding is concerned, this issue requires serious analysis.

I would also like to talk about the roving clinics. It's like going all the way back to the turn of the last century, when no service was provided in the regions. Around two or three weeks ago, three or four people from your outfit came to Sherbrooke. I don't know whether the results were satisfactory. Over 126 applications were made, but there were also requests for information.

How useful are those clinics? There are costs associated with them, after all.

[Gérald Cossette]

There are two main reasons why we hold clinics, the first being that we want to provide people with access. In other words, if they come to the clinic, they can keep their documents. Obviously, we can solve a certain number of problems then and there, for example, if an application has not been completed correctly or if the photos are not adequate.

The second reason for holding and continuing to hold clinics in the coming months is that we want to encourage Canadians to get a passport before June 2009, especially in border regions. People wanting or having to go to the United States will need a passport. However, polls and experience seem to show that in border regions, people are not yet convinced that they will need a passport.

In the major centres, the number of people with passports is extremely high. For people who travel by plane, it's practically 100%. However, in border regions, people think the Americans are going to let them cross without any hassles because they've been crossing the border for 20 years. But there is no guarantee the Americans are going to make any such change to their policy or legislation. That's why the second reason is to encourage people to apply immediately, so that as the deadline approaches, we won't have to deal with an overload of applications that is impossible to handle.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you. I will now turn you over to the care of my colleague.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.