Government Operations Committee on May 13th, 2008

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I see.

I just find it rather curious that somebody from the Privy Council Office was appointed to this position. I suppose it was a matter of taste.

[Jacques Sabourin]

It was a matter of openness. The candidate came from—

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I did not want to be specific, but the appointment was made by the leader of the government. Therefore, it is a political appointment.

[Jacques Sabourin]

I will not comment on the word “political”, but it is clear that this is an appointment of the Privy Council Office, similar to the appointment of the Senate Clerk, the House of Commons Clerk, and Law Clerks for both chambers.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Page, do you commit to respect the specificity of Quebec and the 75-25 ratio; and to make sure that part of your team is made up of people from Quebec?

Mr. Khan, and the other gentleman whose name I have forgotten, your directors, are both from Queen's University. You also graduated from that institution. Will you take into consideration analyses that differ from yours?

[Jacques Sabourin]

Madam, I do not believe that the public service hiring criteria specify a quota or a percentage. In each case, selection is open and based on merit. Therefore, we cannot guarantee in advance a ratio of 75% to 25%.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Page once worked at the Federal- Provincial Relations Office. He understands that there are issues between the federal government and the provinces. The federal government is interfering in provincial areas of jurisdiction, especially in Quebec.

Will you make the commitment to provide periodic and independent reports condemning federal government's intrusion into Quebec's areas of jurisdiction?

[Kevin Page]

That is a good question. I've worked in different sections of the Office of Federal-Provincial Relations. At the time, I really wanted to work in that area, as federalism was a highly significant issue. I also have experience in studying the fiscal and economic situation of provinces. I had the opportunity of being involved in the major discussions in Charlottetown, and I was there before the referendum. I have observed first-hand the importance of provincial areas of jurisdiction and of the political relations between the provinces and the federal government.

I'm very proud that I had the opportunity to work in the federal-provincial relations office in those areas. I looked forward to the opportunity. I thought it was a very important debate. I learned a lot from my colleagues in the federal-provincial relations office about the roles and responsibilities of different jurisdictions in Canada. We would be happy if it were deemed a priority to publish provincial-regional economic and fiscal reports. I have experience in some of these fiscal balance issues at Finance Canada as well in the federal-provincial relations office. I did work on issues like equalization and federal transfers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You have exceeded your time limit considerably.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Coulf the witness finish his answer? I understand that you worked in the area of federal-provincial relations.

Will you make the commitment to denounce intrusions into provincial areas of jurisdiction?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Madam, he works for Parliament in an impartial manner. I am sure he will answer the questions to the best of his ability, but in an impartial way. we are relying on him to do so.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Madam Chair, I just want to be really sure. He has significant links to the current government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Madam Faille, he has worked under several governments since the 1980s. He knows his place and his work.

I simply want to point out that the 75-25 ratio applies to hiring in the national capital region. In other words, 25% of employees should come from Gatineau, and 75% from Ottawa. This ratio is not broken down in terms of staffing, but in terms of the two regions and several departments. It is important that people understand what this ratio means.

Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and my thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

As a person who is not a chartered accountant and has no financial training, I think today's testimony has been one of the most encouraging that I've experienced since I've been here. The budgetary process, reviewing the estimates—these things are very complex. It's important to have these concepts put in a way that a person without financial training can understand.

What plans do you have for helping parliamentarians who are not chartered accountants to pull these different concepts together in a more understandable way?

[Kevin Page]

Over the next few months, we will be working with our colleagues in the Library of Parliament who support standing committees. Together we will be scrutinizing the estimates to see whether we can simplify some of the information in these documents. We would like to do it in a way that would support what we consider to be best practices with respect to Parliament's role in reviewing appropriations.

We would like to make sure that parliamentarians understand the link between the fiscal projections of the Government of Canada and what's included in the estimates. If it's not included in the estimates, what are the reasons for this? When you move from a fiscal planning framework to an estimates framework, it's important to be clear on the differences between the two.

In looking at the information we provide, we will be highlighting some of the big changes taking place in departments—in absolute dollars as well as in percentage increases. Mr. Angus, I believe, raised this earlier. We also plan to consider reports on plans and priorities together with departmental performance reports, highlighting the big policy changes that departments experience. They've had new infusions of money in recent years, and you need to know how they're managing this new money. There are rough performance indicators that enable us to measure the performance of these new programs. We will also look at the lapse issue, which is historical information. Has the department been consuming all the authorities provided to it? If not, what are some of the reasons for this?

The version of these mechanisms that we have in mind will be simplified yet fairly substantial—something we could reproduce across different departments that will highlight some of these changes.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Another concern that this committee has been apprised of on numerous occasions over the last number of months is the whole area of competition for specialists in certain fields. I'm pleased to see, in Mr. Sabourin's comments here, that Mr. Page is such a popular person that the phone is ringing off the hook with people who want to work with him. I'm sure they're going to work for no salary....

I'm assuming that the salary and wage situation is of a competitive nature such that we can actually attract to this department the best people to give us the best information possible.

[Kevin Page]

It's definitely a priority for me to attract the very best people we can get into the parliamentary budget office. I think we've made a few good starts--in terms of the early hires--and I think these folks will attract other high-quality individuals as well.

In terms of salaries, the salaries will be competitive. I don't think we'll be able to offer salaries that folks make on Bay Street or Wall Street necessarily, but in the case of one of the directors we hired, to him, to be able to work in the public service and to support committees like this was such an opportunity, he was actually willing to take a pay cut to come to work in Ottawa.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

Do I have a bit of time?

[Jacques Sabourin]

I was going to add that the quality of the services he'll give will be the same that Mathieu and Philippe are giving you now.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Excellent.

I have another reference to page 2 in your comments, Mr. Page. At the top of the page, you indicate three concerns that have been articulated over time: the fiscal forecasting errors, the need to strengthen accountability and improve scrutiny, and then your third one talks about private members' bills being costed earlier in the budget process. I wonder if you could just comment on how this impacts the budgetary process.

It's my understanding that a private member's bill that's going to add cost to the budget actually requires a royal recommendation. Could you just help me understand how these--number three in the concerns and in the mandate section--apply to your role?

[Kevin Page]

As you noted, there are three pillars, so to speak, with respect to the mandate of the parliamentary budget officer role. One of them is costing of private members' bills and the point that was made was in terms of trying to do that earlier, and trying to do it in a way that will facilitate the budget process.

So what I was getting at, with respect to that point, is that I think underlying a lot of private members' bills are some very good intentions by parliamentarians to try to improve the lives of Canadians. These bills come at it in very different ways--it could be education, it could be environment, it could be food safety--but I think the underlying priorities for these private members' bills often are quite excellent. We try to provide additional support in a way that could actually perhaps improve working with parliamentarians, could actually improve their understanding of the financial dimensions of this, but perhaps could also give them some background on what other measures are already at play and how we could better implement these types of measures.

I think, if you can create private members' bills that are solid from a policy perspective--that meet the priorities of Canadians--it would be very hard, from the point of view of government, to decide not to look at those very carefully.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Will this be an automatic feature, that your office would be involved in the drafting and the presentation of the private members' bills, as legal services are now in giving a parliamentarian help, or would we have to request that help from your department?

[Kevin Page]

Would it be an automatic feature? As you know, sir, the Library of Parliament already works with parliamentarians in terms of looking at private members' bills, on legal advice, on costing advice, and policy-related issues. We will be working with the services that exist now within the Library of Parliament. Given that we will have new capacity with respect to this role, we'll want to add value to that capacity that exists now.

At the same time, we're quite aware that, over a course of a session of Parliament, you get a large number of private members' bills. We'll have to work with parliamentarians as to how we set priorities around those issues. That is going to be one of the very difficult challenges we face over the next number of months.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you very much.

Madame Folco.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to apologize to you two gentlemen for being late, but this was beyond my control.

I have two questions. My first question pertains to accrual budgeting or accrual accounting. Our committee has examined and will continue to examine this issue and the minister's office informed us that it intended to go ahead with some pilot projects in various departments.

Do you know which departments have been selected?