Evidence of meeting #37 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
But you met with them on Canadian soil. Did you go on site to see how they managed unclassified documents?
Principal, BMCI Investigations & Security Ltd.
Yes, we went to Washington.
Bloc
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
I will ask Mr. Meyer to talk about documents at the Department of Foreign Affairs.
I want to add something to what Mr. Cummins said. Since the document was distributed to 232 people, we decided, at the time of the investigation, to investigate only a subset of those people, while carefully managing the risks in order to obtain the best results. Therefore, the people that Mr. Cummins and Mr. Bird—
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
I understand what you are trying to do, but I am going to complete my remarks.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
Thank you, Ms. Faille. We will come back to you later.
We'll go to Mr. Kramp.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome to our guests today.
I must say, when I was listening to Mr. Angus across the floor, with reference to his past history as a journalist, I thought maybe he was preparing for his next career as a novel writer, someone along the lines of a Grisham, with regard to Conspiracy Theory and The Pelican Brief, and I didn't know where we were going.
But Mr. Cummins, I just ask to be put on the record again, because I do believe it is absolutely crucial. You led this review, correct?
Principal, BMCI Investigations & Security Ltd.
With my colleague, Mr. Bird, yes.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
So the two of you either were the principal investigators and/or set the course and direction for the review. Is that correct?
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Then on the record, did you find any deliberate attempt to affect the Democratic primaries?
Principal, BMCI Investigations & Security Ltd.
As I previously responded to Mr. Moore, there was absolutely no evidence established to suggest in any way, shape, or form that that transpired.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Thank you.
By the very nature of this motion, where it actually questions whether this review was appropriate, I think the opposition has really attempted to portray this review and your review as doubtful or inappropriate. So really I think what they are doing is putting in question the veracity and depth of your review. I think it's imperative that this committee should feel either confident or not confident in your abilities as an organization to conduct a review of this capacity.
I'd like to know a bit about your background. I understand we can't ask you for your list of clientele, due to the very nature of your business. But perhaps you could give us some background.
Principal, BMCI Investigations & Security Ltd.
I joined the RCMP in 1967. I retired in 2001. I have been working in various capacities since then.
I worked with Commissioner Roy Romanow on the health care commission.
I did an operational review of the RCMP international liaison and training program in 2002-03.
From 2003 to 2007, I was one of two investigators for the tribunal of inquiry into the An Garda Síochána with respect to certain misdeeds of the Gardai in the County of Donegal in the Republic of Ireland. My role was to conduct the interviews, do research, establish international best practices, advise the tribunal with respect to what these best practices were and where to find the subject matter, identify subject matter experts and where to get these subject matter experts, and arrange for them to attend in the Republic of Ireland. Among other things, the subject matter expertise was with respect to ballistics, handwriting, document examination, and, more importantly, interview techniques and interview questions as best practices from around the world. I arranged to have people from Canada, the United Kingdom, and New Zealand attend as expert witnesses before the tribunal.
In the RCMP, I had considerable experience as a detective inspector on a number of high-profile document leaks, including the constitutional document, and some of you might remember the more recent alleged budget leak, otherwise known as the Doug Small affair. I was an investigator on the constitutional document leak. At the point of the Small affair, I was the director of national security investigations responsible for those kinds of investigations that potentially involve the Official Secrets Act.
I've done a number of other politically sensitive investigations on behalf of the Speaker of the House of Commons and others.
So my expertise in many cases was essentially in breach of trust, the former section 118 of the Canadian Criminal Code. There's not much more I can tell you.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Well, honestly, I think all of us are quite impressed. But I think a point that needs to be made is that obviously you have extensive experience—multi-discipline, multi-level—in dealing with matters of security and investigation and of review.
In this particular review you've just completed, were you directed to do anything untoward and/or different? Or did you follow the best practices that you have in previous investigations?
Principal, BMCI Investigations & Security Ltd.
It was very clear when we set out the scope of work and the nature of the work...the question was asked by the president of BMCI, because he was very concerned, with respect to the reputation of BMCI, that they be seen to be, and would be, given unfettered discretion. The question was asked and the answer was given, were there any places we could not go? We were assured by the project authority, on behalf of the clerk, that there were no places we could not go if the evidence was there to bring us there. That was actually quite reassuring.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
But obviously you found this case quite complex. Were there a variety of areas that concerned you deeply? Did you have to use any different strategies or tactics that you would ordinarily not use, or has this been a pattern that you have used successfully in the past?
Principal, BMCI Investigations & Security Ltd.
I would say it's a pattern that was governed by the general principles of audit and review, objective fact-finding. You set out a work plan, you agree to the work plan, and you follow it through.
There was no need or requirement to adopt specific strategies or subterfuge or anything like that. There was a limitation of scope with respect to the ability to investigate in the United States. And I will say personally to this committee that I would have refused to have conducted an investigation in the United States, because I will not put myself and my family in jeopardy of contravening a law of the United States for which I can end up in jail for two years. I wouldn't have done it as a member of the RCMP and I certainly won't do it as a private citizen or a private investigator.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Were you inhibited in any way, or did you feel you had adequate resources to complete your review?
Principal, BMCI Investigations & Security Ltd.
With respect to the scope of the review that was set out, I believe we had adequate resources. It was time-sensitive. Time was of the essence; I'm not denying that. Was there was some pressure—I wouldn't say “pressure” in this sense, because that would be misstating it—or some desire to have it completed? Yes, there was a desire to have it completed, and we did complete it on time and according to work plan and as extensively as we might otherwise have done.
Liberal
Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Your report concludes that it is probable that Ian Brodie spoke to a reporter on the subject of NAFTA. In my opinion, I interpret that very clearly that he did speak to a reporter. And to the fact that he didn't reveal or convey any confidential information, he is a person who has sensitive diplomatic information, confidential information. He is the chief of staff for the Prime Minister. I don't think he needs to give specific memos or line items to convey a message. A simple comment from him carries a great deal of weight. So I think there is a bit of confusion here.
He might not have given a memo per se, but with even a comment made by him regarding this matter, it doesn't matter if he got the name “Clinton” or “Obama” wrong; the fact that he is a chief of staff who has confidential information...his indiscretion caused this leak, and I think that's a given from the report. That's the way I interpret it and many Canadians interpret it.
The motive is something I know, Mr. Lynch, you don't want to comment on, what the motive might be for the chief of staff of the Prime Minister, a Conservative chief of staff, with close ties to the Republican Party, to make this comment. Maybe that's an issue that can be discussed later.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
On a point of order, Madam Chair, my colleague obviously made a statement regarding association or ties to various other political entities in other countries.
Liberal
Conservative