Government Operations Committee on March 12th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

I call the meeting to order, colleagues. We are continuing our review of the 2009-10 estimates.

We have before us today, at our request, representatives of the Privy Council Office, in respect of votes 1, 5, 10, and 25 under Privy Council. We can start there.

Well before the end of our meeting time we will be switching to the issue of appointments, and we have one person. As you know, we're going to review one appointment, and that will wrap up the meeting.

In the absence of any interventions, we'll go to our witnesses, who will present, in an appropriate, short way, the spending plans for the Privy Council under those votes.

We have Simon Kennedy, deputy secretary to the cabinet, and Marilyn MacPherson, assistant deputy minister, corporate services branch.

Whichever one of you wishes, please proceed.

It will be Ms. MacPherson. Thank you.

[Marilyn MacPherson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services Branch, Privy Council Office]

Good morning, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to meet with the members of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. As you mentioned, I am accompanied by Simon Kennedy, Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Plans and Consultation.

We are here today to talk about the 2009-10 Main Estimates for the Privy Council Office. PCO's last appearance before this Committee was in February 2009, regarding the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the Privy Council Office. The Privy Council Office reports directly to the Prime Minister and is headed by the Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet.

The Prime Minister's overall responsibility is to provide leadership in creating and sustaining the unity of the ministry required to maintain the confidence of Parliament. The Prime Minister demonstrates this leadership in two distinct ways: through the exercise of unique authorities as head of government and through the management and coordination of the government's agenda as chair of the cabinet.

The core functions of the Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, and those of the entire PCO, flow directly from these responsibilities. The strength of PCO is in large measure determined by its ability to concentrate its resources on supporting exclusively these two central responsibilities, in addition to helping the Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet fulfill his role as head of the public service.

PCO contributes significantly to the implementation of a clearly articulated government policy agenda, coordinates timely responses to issues facing the government and the country, and supports the effective operation of the cabinet and the government. PCO works to maintain the highest professional and ethical standards in the federal public service and ensures that the Prime Minister and ministers within the Prime Minister's portfolio receive high-quality, consistent, appropriate, and non-partisan policy and legal advice and objective recommendations.

PCO has four priorities for 2009-10 and will achieve these priorities as follows. First, support the Prime Minister in exercising his overall leadership responsibility. Through this priority, PCO will continue to support the Prime Minister in one of his key leadership roles, which is to create and sustain the unity of the Ministry.

PCO will carry out the following plans to meet this priority effectively: provide advice on the broad organization and machinery of government, the structure and functioning of Cabinet and its committees, parliamentary affairs and the appointments of principal public office holders; and support strong and integrated management across all government institutions, supporting the effective functioning of Cabinet committees by exercising a coordination and challenge function on policy and legislative proposals from departments and by advising on the management of the Government's legislative agenda.

PCO's second priority is to focus on key policy in legislative areas and to strengthen medium-term policy planning. PCO will provide advice and support in the overall development and implementation of the government's policy and legislative agendas. More specifically, PCO will support the government's efforts to respond to the global economic recession, provide strong leadership of the economic agenda, and provide economic stimulus; help all Canadians to participate in this country's opportunities; ensure the federal government operates more effectively; contribute to global security and well-being; strengthen the federation and Canada's democratic institutions; develop and implement initiatives aimed at securing our energy future by tackling climate change and preserving Canada's environment; and finally, keep Canadians safe.

The third priority is to support management and accountability of government. PCO will support the government's continued efforts to improve the overall management, transparency, and accountability of government. As well, it will help to ensure strong leadership capability at all levels. PCO will effectively meet this priority by supporting the renewal of the Public Service of Canada.

The fourth priority is to strengthen PCO's internal management practices. This priority will contribute to excellence in management practices, resulting in effective and efficient use of resources in support of PCO's operations. In addition, financial and non-financial performance information will be more readily available, contributing to improved transparency and accountability.

PCO will focus on internal renewal efforts and initiatives and the following plans: to strengthen management of internal security, particularly in the areas of emergency management and occupational safety and health; to contribute to provide objective and independent value-added assurance services; to strengthen the integration of human resources planning into business planning; and to implement the second year of a multi-year performance measurement strategy.

PCO's main estimates for 2009-10 total $128.8 million. Resources are allocated as follows: 47% of our resources are spent on providing professional, non-partisan policy advice and support to the Prime Minister and portfolio ministers; 38% is allocated for internal services; 13% on providing policy advice and secretariat support to cabinet and cabinet committees; and 2% on providing overall leadership and direction to the public service in support of the government's agenda.

As of 2009-10, internal services are now being presented as a separate program activity in the main estimates as per the Treasury Board Secretariat's standardized profile of the Government of Canada's internal services. In prior years, corporate services budgets and expenses were prorated based on the weight of each program activity.

For internal services, please note that PCO operates in a highly centralized and unique environment where many costs normally assumed by line managers are covered by corporate services: for example, all informatics and technical services, which include protected and classified networks based on the uniqueness of our business environment at PCO; all furniture and equipment; supplies; printing and graphics; messenger services; telecommunications; translation; and the review of cabinet confidence information in order to protect prior and current cabinet information. These are all covered by corporate services and are not allocated to the individual program activities.

The overall increase of $5.6 million, from $123.2 million in 2008-09 to $128.8 million in 2009-10, pertains to the following items. The $4.8 million is related to the funding for the establishment and the operations of the Afghanistan Task Force. Funding is expected until 2011-12, which is the last year of operation of the task force. The $2 million is related to the funding for the office of the coordinator for the 2010 Olympics and for G-8 security. Funding is expected until 2010-11, which is the last year of operations of the office. There is $800,000 that is included for collective bargaining agreements and $100,000 for statutory adjustments related to the salary and motor car allowance for the leader of the government in the House of Commons.

This is offset by the following decreases. There is $1.3 million for the funding of the Commission of Inquiry into the Investigation of the Bombing of Air India Flight 182, which was originally ending its operations in 2008-09. Therefore, no amounts were approved in the 2009-10 main estimates. However, due to delays of hearings, delays in getting documents, and delays in the production of the report, additional funding for this commission was sought in the 2008-09 supplementary estimates and will be sought through the 2009-10 supplementary estimates (A). There is also a reduction of $500,000 for statutory adjustments related to the employee benefit plans and $300,000 for additional efficiency savings related to the procurement initiative.

In closing, I would like to thank you for giving me this time to inform you of the ongoing initiatives in the 2009-10 Main Estimates.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you very much for providing your opening statement in both official languages.

I'll turn to Mr. McTeague for the opening round.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Ms. MacPherson, Mr. Kennedy, thank you for being here today. I have a number of questions, and I’m sure my colleagues will as well. They may be quite diverse; you covered quite an area.

We were interested in the issue of the Public Service Commission. There were concerns raised at previous hearings with respect to ongoing problems they're confronted with, particularly with an aging population, but also the question of mobility. As well, there were some concerns about what they refer to as “the creep”, as it relates to not qualifying, or having people in a particular division or at a particular level that doesn't seem to correspond exactly to what they had been assigned to.

I want to ask what work we might expect from the PCO in terms of efforts it may be making in collaboration with the Public Service Commission to address some of these concerns, as well as in the report in 2008?

[Marilyn MacPherson]

From my perspective, I'm responsible for the internal management for PCO. I'm sure some of the issues you raised do exist right across the government. However, within PCO itself, I'm not aware of any particular issues around either the flow of individuals coming into or leaving the organization.

In certain divisions of the department, we do have a two-year window where analysts tend to come in from other departments, stay for a period of time, and move out. We don't consider that to be particularly problematic. In other areas of the department we have individuals who stay for long periods of time.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Under number 3, “Support management and accountability of government”, it says:

...it will help to ensure strong leadership capacity at all levels. PCO will effectively meet this priority by supporting the renewal of the Public Service of Canada.

Can you expand on that a bit?

[Marilyn MacPherson]

Certainly there is an actual organization inside the PCO that is responsible, and they do support the Prime Minister's committee on public service renewal. They have a broader mandate to actually look at leadership and the appointment of individuals into the public service at the senior levels.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Let me shift gears here; I might run out of time. My colleague, Ms. Hall Findlay, would like to jump in.

I have a simple question on how difficult your task at the PCO is, particularly as it relates to the usual regulations or routines, given the desire to get the stimulus out. What assurances can you give the committee that the way in which one conducts business appropriately, with due diligence being paramount, enables you to meet these Herculean tasks?

You've cited a number of them here, but it sounds to me like you're being asked to do a lot more. How difficult is your job now going to be, given that there's an expectation that things should happen at a much greater pace?

[Simon Kennedy, Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Plans and Consultation, Privy Council Office]

Thanks for the question.

I think in the recent report on reporting on the budget the government set out its accountability framework for how it was going to be moving forward to implement the economic action plan measures. We've been working closely with departments to try to implement that approach--trying to get the cabinet approval process and the process for Treasury Board streamlined, and looking at ways to get the funding appropriated and into the hands of departments faster so they can actually begin delivering the program.

There is an accountability framework that was set up for the purposes of ensuring that Parliament and Canadians can see how the funds are being spent. The government has indicated it's going to be reporting regularly on the progress. I believe it was yesterday or the day before that the Minister of Finance indicated that there's a website up and running and that the intention is to report regularly on the budget measures and where the money is being spent.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Kennedy, I understand the government response. But from the mechanical point of view of the operations of government, how are you able to be more diligent than you have been in the past in order to meet these objectives? Is there any coordination observing Treasury Board guidelines, your own guidelines?

[Simon Kennedy]

As the Privy Council Office we're responsible for trying to ensure some coordination across government, so we've set up a regular series of meetings with the key departments, the main departments that are in charge of delivering the stimulus measures at the senior level. We are meeting with deputies roughly once a month to actually do a tour de table, to see how things are going, to identify any challenges or problems up front, to keep track of the measures that are being put in place.

Of course, I'm sure any of the deputy ministers you may speak with would say this. This is clearly the number one priority in departments, and to the extent possible, departments are shifting resources to the delivery of the economic action plan measures. So they're applying the same standard of due diligence but putting more people on the case, if you like, to make sure that the processing is done as quickly as possible.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Chair, with your indulgence, I'll allow Ms. Hall Findlay to continue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

She has a minute and a half.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm referring to point number 3 in terms of the priorities referring to “continued efforts to improve overall management, transparency and accountability of government”. We've heard a lot lately from the Information Commissioner about, I would suggest, a lack of transparency in the sense of significantly increased delays in access to information requests, the suggestion that there has been a significant increase in cabinet consultations, and a suggestion of the PCO involvement.

I know we're talking now more about the financial aspect, but given that this was listed as one of your priorities, I couldn't help but ask. Has there been a significant increase or an increase in the number of access to information requests that the PCO has been asked to look at and in effect touch in the process?

[Marilyn MacPherson]

Yes, our requests for ATIP have gone up significantly over the last probably five to ten years. We are receiving an ever-growing number of consultations. As you can imagine, the requests that come into PCO are relatively complicated because we deal with fairly sensitive and complex files. We are finding that it is extremely difficult to meet the timelines that are in legislation.

We have increased the number of resources that we have internally. We've introduced a new program to actually train people up from PM-1s to PM-4s in order to have people who are capable, because it's very difficult to recruit people who are able to do ATIP in an effective manner. We've also changed our business process inside the department to try to streamline it and make it as efficient as possible. But even with that, the volumes do continue to increase.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

That's your time. Thank you very much.

We'll go to Madame Bourgeois for a first full round.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Chair, Ms. MacPherson, good morning. And welcome to you too, Mr. Kennedy.

I have several brief questions and we don't have a lot of time. I'm going to ask you therefore to be succinct in your answers.

I have just learned a lot of things concerning the role that the PCO has to play. For example, in your presentation you say that you exercise a challenge function on policy and legislative proposals from departments. That means that, when the Prime Minister and his ministers discuss their proposals, you are the one who determine whether and how they can be applied.

Is that right?

[Marilyn MacPherson]

I think that Simon could answer your question.

[Simon Kennedy]

Merci .

The Privy Council Office plays two roles. One is as secretariat to the cabinet, so PCO actually organizes, on behalf of the Prime Minister and on behalf of the chairs of the various cabinet committees, the actual meetings of ministers. We provide advice on what could be on the agenda and the scheduling of meetings. We actually help to organize them.

Part of that role is to work with the involved departments that are bringing items into cabinet, to make sure that when items come to cabinet they are ready for discussion. One of the principles we try to observe in working with departments is to make sure that when ministers have items on the cabinet agenda and they're there to make decisions or provide recommendations, they have full information so that the proposals are well developed, the costs are understood, the benefits are understood--that sort of thing.

What Ms. MacPherson referred to in her remarks is that part of the role we play is to provide a bit of a challenge function, if you like. When a department is coming into cabinet with a proposal, we work with them to make sure there is full information. In a sense, we provide a bit of an opportunity to ask some difficult questions in advance to make sure the proposal is the best it can be. But certainly PCO plays that role in a facilitating sense. Obviously, the responsible minister is responsible for the program and the advice, and ultimately the cabinet makes the decision. But our job is to facilitate that process by working with ministries when they come into the system.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I see. That means you also support Treasury Board. You support the whole cabinet, including Treasury Board, is that right?

[Simon Kennedy]

The Treasury Board committee is actually supported by the Treasury Board Secretariat. It's the one committee actually established in law, and it has a process associated with it.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

You don't support it as such, I agree. Pay equity, which is currently a topic of discussion in Canada, is now negotiable. Without breaking any rules of confidentiality, pay equity might have been dealt with by PCO, for example.

[Simon Kennedy]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, I don't totally understand the question. I'd like to help answer, but....

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Perhaps, Madame Bourgeois, you could recast the question.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Since you support the Prime Minister and the ministers or the ideas proposed, I imagine that pay equity might have been discussed by the ministers. Without breaching confidentiality, can you tell me whether you have discussed pay equity and the harmful effects on the living conditions of women?