Government Operations Committee on April 21st, 2009

[Alister Smith]

This is an initiative that one part of Treasury Board is implementing, the modernizing of federal labs; it's a multi-year action plan. There has been an attempt to develop a list of the projects that contribute most to core federal regulatory responsibilities. There is $250,000 available for this. It is largely aimed at deferred maintenance at federal laboratories.

Indeed, the application process and approvals are nearing completion for this program. We would expect that we'll start to see action on this very shortly.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Do we know what aspect of the health care system the funding for the Canada Health Infoway will go toward in terms of the electronic records?

[Alister Smith]

I'm not awfully familiar with that program, but I believe the intention is to develop comprehensive health records for Canadians.

[Paul Rochon]

The goal of the moneys in the budget is to ensure that at least 50% of Canadians have electronic health records by 2010. I guess the Department of Health could provide you more information on what that means, if you want to get into greater detail.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Yes.

So I guess that funding is going directly to Canada Health Infoway, and it's up to them how that's disbursed.

[Paul Rochon]

Yes. Canada Health Infoway is an organization that has representatives from all provincial governments and the federal government. It has its own board of directors and it administers the funds independently.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

The reason I was curious was that we all, I think, look at the economic stimulus and national programs in our own ridings. I remember asking the CEO of my hospital if they ever got any Canada Health Infoway funding, and she said that hospitals didn't, as far as she knew. I was just curious about where that stimulus funding was going, through Canada Health Infoway, but maybe it's better if I ask officials from Health Canada. They probably have a better gauge.

In terms of the overall project, are there any estimates on the stimulus of those two programs? Are there any job projections or expectations in terms of how much will be spent in the first part of those three years?

[Paul Rochon]

That is something we will have over the course of this year. For the purposes of the numbers that were presented in the budget, we have included, as an assumption, an estimate that these funds would be disbursed over the next three years. This would be an expense that would be very much in the same category as infrastructure in terms of economic impacts.

It's clearly in a different segment on the economy, dealing with knowledge workers and electronic infrastructure, but in terms of generating economic activities and employment, we would think, or I think it's fair to say, that $1 spent in Health Infoway generates in the first year $1 extra activity, and in the second year probably $1.50.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Is there a projected date for when projects would have to be completed? I remember reading that for knowledge infrastructure it was March 31, 2011, or something like that. Are there any dates projected in the health field?

[Alister Smith]

I know that the $500 million, as Paul was saying, for Canada Health Infoway is through to 2010.

On page 94 in the action plan, so chapter 3 of the budget, or chapter 4 of this separate March report, we do have an estimate that it is anticipated that $150 million to $250 million will be spent in year one, with the remainder over the following year, for Canada Health Infoway.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

That's five, Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Mr. Regan.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Smith and Mr. Rochon, you've indicated in some of the answers you've had to give today that it would require one of the departments to come forward to answer some of the questions that you've been asked. I guess what strikes me is that a lot of these questions are simply asking you to show us that in fact this money is going out there.

My question to the two of you is this. If the Prime Minister came to you and asked what money was being spent, what money was going out the door, what would your answer be? Or what would you do to get him the answer?

[Alister Smith]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

We are monitoring departmental spending and progress on these initiatives. That's, indeed, how we were able—the Department of Finance in particular took the lead—to generate the March report. We are now working towards the June report.

With each of these initiatives, we go out to departments with a series of templates and gather the information directly on rates of spending, progress, various stages, progress on individual initiatives. We will assemble all that information and provide it in the June report. We will be doing the same in September and the same in December. As we move further along the year, we'll start to see more of the results of these initiatives.

But that's how we gather the information, to answer your question.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

You're referring to a process that results from the opposition motion on the budget that was passed—our motion—requiring reports in March and June and December. It suggests to me that otherwise—if that weren't there, and they asked those questions—you wouldn't be undertaking this process and wouldn't be able to tell the Prime Minister what in fact is being spent by the Government of Canada to get the economy moving or what's being done on projects across the country.

[Paul Rochon]

Maybe I could respond to that.

There was an accountability framework included in the budget that was tabled on January 27 that involved regular reports to Canadians on amounts spent. That's set out in the budget.

It's also important to realize that this implementation is happening in real time. We're in the twentieth day of that phase now. It involves a large number of departments across a large number of programs. That work is ongoing. We're monitoring it and we'll take stock at numerous points throughout the year. The next formal point will be likely some time in May, in preparation for a report later, in June.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

My colleague would like to ask a question.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

I want to clarify, because I think I heard this before and it speaks to my colleague's point, the inability to actually say where the money is going right now.

I understand progress reports, but June is much later than what we're looking for, in particular with respect to the $3 billion blank cheque, as it were. It continues to be fairly blank for us, so I want to confirm. We're about to address an issue here as a committee about what witnesses we want to have come, over the next number of weeks. We very much would like to make those appearances useful, and we will need to make decisions about which departments to ask.

So just to confirm, can you tell us today the four, five, six departments we should be focusing on with respect to the $3 billion, to ask them to come to the committee meeting? Are you able to give us even the four, five, or six departments we should focus on for the $3 billion?

[Alister Smith]

I'm not sure it's all that helpful to pick out specific departments. We will have, certainly as early as mid-May, a detailed list. We have a lot of departments that are involved in BIA initiatives, in loans, as well as through the Treasury Board vote 35 items. You'll have a large supps package of budget items as well.

There are some departments that will certainly benefit from initiatives under TB vote 35, but I'm not sure it would be useful to try to pick out individual ones at this stage. If your interest is in how progress in getting money out the door is occurring, I think it would be better to ask Infrastructure Canada, Industry Canada, HRSDC—the large departments who are involved, front line, in delivering these programs—than go through a list of smaller items.

[An hon. member]

That is a list.

[Alister Smith]

These are departments, by the way.... Infrastructure programs are largely statutory, and those are programs where there's a great deal of action now.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

But again, on your own comments earlier--that of the $3 billion--most of it probably wouldn't be in fact for infrastructure, for the very reasons that we've talked about. At least I have HRSDC, Industry Canada--that's giving us a start.

Your version of “useful”, with respect, might be a little bit different from mine. We were asked to approve $3 billion without any prior approval of any specifics, and we're not finding out until significantly later, when the key three-month period...we're almost a third of the way through. Our job is to hold the government to account, and we're not getting very much information at this point.

[Alister Smith]

I might just add that every year we ask for interim supply, which you give us. This year over $20 billion is approved in interim supply before detailed scrutiny by parliamentary committees. In essence, the $3 billion will be under even greater scrutiny than that funding has provided. In addition, this is a $20 billion package of items. My point is simply that if you're interested in where the money is going, overall, and I think that was the premise, with infrastructure, for instance, and with communities, then there's a much wider range of initiatives to look at, including all of those in the BIA--$10 million worth.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

No, I'm specifically continuing with questions on the $3 billion.