Evidence of meeting #19 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was police.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
This is made up of members of the RCMP from across Canada?
President, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
Solely members of the RCMP. And as I explained, we have regular members, civilian members, and we also represent some retirees.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
How many regular members would be part of your association?
President, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
I said that in the presentation. You don't have to take my word, but it's written in there. Right now we have close to 1,500 or 1,600 regular members. I must admit to you, though, that since the decision our number is growing, because now it's no longer an impediment to be--
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
These are paid-up members; they've paid membership fees.
President, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
--identified as a member of the association. Before, it was prohibited. Now, because of the decision, it's no longer prohibited.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
I appreciate that. Thank you very much; that's helpful.
Today we're here to discuss a specific piece of legislation. I know you've identified four concerns. Thus far I'm failing to understand exactly how each of those four pertain to the legislation we have before us today. I think you have some valid concerns, some concerns that relate to numbers of people you represent, and maybe people you don't represent as well, but I've failed thus far to see how the concerns you have identified pertain specifically to the legislation we're investigating. We're really limited in our capacity as a committee to involve ourselves in some of these other issues, because they don't pertain.... I'm failing to see the connection between this legislation we have before us and the issues you've brought to our attention.
Specifically, under each of the four points, what amendments do you think would be necessary for the legislation to address your specific concerns? That's all we can address today. We don't have the capacity to go beyond the parameters of this legislation. We can't rewrite the legislation to address concerns that are outside of the legislative scope we've been presented with.
I hear that you have concerns, and I think all of us around the table can have some sympathy for your concerns, but we're very limited in terms of what we are able to do within the scope of this particular legislative bill we've been given.
President, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
Thank you.
I'll answer you directly, referring to our paper that you have. As you said, it's very limited. Also, to answer Monsieur Ménard, one of the recommendations addresses exactly what is contained in Bill C-18, which is changes to the definition.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Specifically on the legislation, perhaps you can comment on it specifically.
President, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
Yes. I pay particular attention to proposed section 31.1, and I'll take it step by step. Recommendation one on that section is already under scrutiny for your review. We understand it's a new one, and all we're asking you is to add some portion to section 31.1 as it's written, or in laymen's language what.... I hope you realize that we worked on that with our knowledge only, not having access to the Ministry of Justice people. As you can see, there will only be an amendment to proposed section 31.1.
Conservative
President, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
That's exactly what we wrote in it: “apply also to RCMP members in respect of service spent as cadets”.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
I think that was already addressed earlier this morning. We are actually not able to include that because Canada Revenue Agency does not allow for that provision.
President, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
Did you understand what I said earlier, though? Because there are some changes that took place years ago that now are being addressed by the bill. They were also made in that. To us, it seems that now is the time to do it and give them two or three years to rectify it.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
I wonder if Mr. Cape might be able to bring some clarity to this issue, because I'm not sure it's something we can do within this legislation. I think it's outside our parameters.
Director, Pension Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, we're back to the issue in terms of who is an employee. Only employees can contribute to the pension plan, and cadets are not in that situation.
The issue of how we could address that I don't think is through this legislation. It would be through other means. I think Monsieur Delisle raised some points that we should perhaps bring forward to our organization and have them looked at. But from our perspective, as the director of pension services, I can't say we should do something in terms of changing the classification of employment or employees as far as cadets are concerned.
The other issue, in terms of a no-cost issue, is if you're granting people a six months credit in terms of pensionable time when they're not contributing, there are costs associated with that.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Right. I guess that's the argument that's being made.
My submission is not that we don't think this is a valuable contribution to the larger picture, but we are not able through this legislative process to do what you're asking.
Director, Pension Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Shelley, maybe you might add to the issue in terms of disability.
Senior Analyst, Pension Policy, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
To clarify for you specifically, the new section 31.1 of the bill only relates to disability payments under the pension act. So adding a reference there to cadets, if we could, wouldn't solve the problem. It's only clarifying who's eligible for very specific disability benefits.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
So that wouldn't do anything in terms of the pension benefits or--
Senior Analyst, Pension Policy, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Covering them under the pension, no.
Director, Pension Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
As a sort of background in terms of Monsieur Ménard's question related to the CMs versus RMs, the issue of a regular member.... A regular member is a police officer, and the Income Tax Act has provisions to allow for pensionable time--it's 24 years plus a day, I believe--and the contributions are based on that. The CM component, civilian members, is based on 35 years, because the majority of civilian members are doing essentially public service type work, even though they're contributing into the RCMPSA.
The other issue that might come from that, and it's really outside the scope again, is the issue of what would be the impact on the public service employees who are working for the RCMP.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you very much.
Mr. Delisle, may I clarify one or two things? Mr. Warkentin was concerned about your organization. First of all, I want to congratulate you and your group for carrying on the debate over the years regarding independent unionization. I think it has been a long time.
First of all, has the decision that recently came down from the Ontario court been appealed, or does that stand?
President, Quebec Mounted Police Members' Association
My understanding is that today is the last day--
