Evidence of meeting #22 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was infrastructure.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
But again I go back to the issue with respect to Fortune. Absolutely, it's property owned by Transport Canada. But at the end of the day, if you're not going to do something as the minister responsible, they've got to look to other avenues. So I'm imploring you to take this--
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I appreciate the advice. Listen, Mr. Martin talked about a 30-year deficit that municipalities have for infrastructure. I have a 30-year deficit at Transport Canada. There's always greater demand than there is the ability to meet it. That's not unique to infrastructure. It's not unique to health care or education. It's not unique to public transit. It's the case everywhere. But I appreciate your wise counsel, and I'll certainly commit to sitting down with Mr. Ranger here to chat about it.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
I appreciate that, and I will get back to you on that again, as you know.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
Thank you. The phone lines are open.
I'll go to Monsieur Roy for cinq minutes et ensuite Monsieur Gourde pour cinq minutes.
Monsieur Roy.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Minister, I would like to go back to the question I addressed earlier and that my colleague subsequently took up as well.
With regard to infrastructure belonging to Transport Canada in the regions, there has not been any investment in years. You say no contribution is being requested from the municipalities.
I'm sorry to contradict you, but under the transfer program, a contribution has been requested from the municipalities. A municipality of 1,500 inhabitants cannot invest $2 million to $3 million to repair infrastructure belonging to the federal government. That's what I was explaining to you.
Under the transfer program, that's precisely what is being asked of the municipalities. They're being asked to take charge of infrastructure once it is repaired. However, you first have to repair it. That's where the problem lies.
Transport Canada hasn't made any investment in this infrastructure, which belongs to it, for years. Let's get it straight. Of course Public Works is involved in the process because it's the department that must subsequently take action. The fact remains that this infrastructure belongs to the federal government.
My question is simple. What have you planned for infrastructure belonging to Transport Canada, beyond that mentioned? I'm not talking to you about Vancouver or major infrastructure, such as the Champlain bridge. I'm talking to you about infrastructure that belongs to Transport Canada in the regions. What has been allocated under the budget? What will you do for the dilapidated Transport Canada infrastructure everywhere?
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I'll ask my colleague and deputy minister to provide you with specific details.
Louis Ranger Deputy Head, Infrastructure Canada
There is a major fund for small craft harbours, but in a particular context, divestiture. It is interesting that the question was asked this morning with regard to Newfoundland and Labrador and Quebec, because these are the two provinces that have not availed themselves of existing programs. We've divested hundreds of small craft harbours through a model that has been very successful elsewhere.
The money is available if we want to form a partnership with the municipalities or with anyone wishing to own the port. We are also committed to restoring the port to an acceptable condition with significant investments and conditions that have been proven elsewhere.
Bloc
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
I know the program, but I'm explaining to you that it is distinctly inadequate. I'll give you a very concrete example. Saint-Maxime-du-Mont-Louis is a municipality of 1,500 inhabitants. The department turned over some infrastructure to it and told it that it will repair it completely. However, in 20 years, the municipality will be utterly incapable of spending $2 million, $3 million or $4 million to repair the infrastructure. That's what you must understand. The reason the program has not worked in Quebec is that the department is asking small municipalities to take charge of infrastructure that will subsequently cost them a fortune. These municipalities will be unable to bear the responsibility. That's the defect of the program.
Deputy Head, Infrastructure Canada
The calculation of the amount we remit does not just include repairs. We also grant money to future owners and we do a calculation spread over a number of years, including the operating expenses they will have to incur. However, there are ports—I don't want to name one in particular—that haven't seen any boats for 10 years.
Deputy Head, Infrastructure Canada
We also have to agree on the purpose of a port. If it is used for fishing on Sunday afternoons, it's hard to justify millions of dollars for that.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
With regard to the example I'm giving you, the municipality has agreed on a purpose, but the issue has been dragging for 10 years. Transport Canada has always answered that it didn't have the necessary money. That's what I want to explain to you.
Deputy Head, Infrastructure Canada
I can assure you that the funding is still there. And even if the funds haven't been spent and the temptation to use the funds elsewhere is sometimes great, we maintain that budget in the event there are opportunities for partnerships with the municipalities.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Yes.
You're telling us that the Government of Quebec doesn't want to participate; that's possible, but I nevertheless have a question for you, minister.
You're going to explain to me why all the mayors of Quebec municipalities are crying out and asking the federal and Quebec governments why the funding hasn't been released.
You tell us there's been an agreement. So why hasn't the funding been released? Why does this drag on? What's preventing the two levels of government from moving forward?
In the case of the majority of municipalities that I know of—I was a mayor for a long time—we always had projects on the back burner, many more than the available funding could cover. That's still the case today. Explain to me what isn't working. Why are the municipalities, all the municipalities represented by 100 participants, telling us that it's not working, that the money isn't being paid and that the projects aren't being accepted. What is the problem?
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
The Union des municipalités du Québec says the same thing. It's not just the federal government's fault; there's also the provincial government. We're going to report to the House of Commons in June. I should point out that I'm spending personal time on this file. It's a priority to try to work well with Quebec. We'll see what's in the report in June. We announced $350 million, one-third for PRECO and for those kinds of projects. You'll get a list in June. If you have any other specific ideas, I'm still prepared to hear your opinion.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
What are you going to tell the municipal representatives this afternoon?
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
If you want to hear the Prime Minister himself, you're welcome.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
As a former mayor and member from Quebec, you're always welcome.