Evidence of meeting #30 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was test.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
I call the meeting to order.
Colleagues, we're going to have witnesses at about 11:30 from the Public Service Commission.
Right now, we're going to be doing committee business, specifically a motion by Martha Hall Findlay, which she has given us notice of. I think she's going to move it right now.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Yes, I am going to move it right now. We are gamely going to give this another try. There were a couple of clerical mistakes made, so I'll just read the motion again for everyone in English.
I am sorry. I can read it in French too, if you wish.
It reads:
That Public Works and Government Services Canada, or such other department of the Government of Canada as is appropriate, provide the committee by 11 a.m. eastern daylight time on June 19, 2009, the most recent Central Financial Management Reporting System data for the 2008-2009 fiscal year expenditures and lapses by department.
Would you like me to read it in French as well?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
Would you like to outline the reasons members might like to adopt that motion?
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
I would happy to. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
As the members of the committee are aware, we passed a motion at a prior meeting asking for this information from a different department. The response was insufficient. It basically was that we should try asking Public Works and Government Services. That is what we are doing now.
It is our very strongly held view that in our role as parliamentarians providing financial oversight of the government and our duty to keep the government to account, this information is extremely important. It is also extremely important from a timeframe perspective, because of the impending end of the parliamentary session.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
All of this is part of our continuing monitoring of the rollout of the stimulus package. I presume that's the envelope it falls into.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
It is also tied to our review of the main and supplementary estimates, the larger obligation that we have as a committee.
Liberal
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
Mr. Chair, given the relatively short time frame—tomorrow is June 19—I am not sure whether the department is able to act on this motion so quickly. I would like to propose a friendly amendment.
Can I read it to you?
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
The motion as amended would read as follows:
That Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC), or such other department of the Government of Canada as is appropriate, provide the committee, by June 25, 2009, the most recent Central Financial Management Reporting System (CFMRS) data for the 2008-2009 fiscal year expenditures and lapses by department.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
There's an amendment. I actually don't know if it's a friendly amendment, but it sounded friendly enough.
However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and even if it weren't an friendly amendment, it's still an amendment that's been moved. So it might be moot as to whether or not it is friendly. So there's been an amendment to the main motion.
Monsieur Gourde, did you want to explain the origin or basis for the amendment? Okay, you don't have to add more.
Then we'll debate the amendment. I'll go back across to the other side if that's okay. Someone from the opposition side on the amendment?
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you very much. We asked for this information a week ago and we are told that it is ready to be provided. But this is a friendly amendment, and we can wait until June 25. We agree.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I'd simply point out that it was my understanding that this data is regularly produced and filed as part of the new accountability that was created under the Federal Accountability Act, and the change of the type of accounting to accrual accounting for the Government of Canada, etc.--that main shift that took place--meant that this data was produced in each department and filed monthly and that this information should be current and up to date and available. It was never the plan that it should be hoarded by the government for its own purposes. It was in the interests of accountability and transparency that this evolution took place in the monitoring of the spending and accounting of the government.
Notwithstanding the argument about whether it would be available tomorrow or June 25, there shouldn't be any great hardship in making this information available to a parliamentary committee. We're not asking the Government of Canada to release it in a press release to the people of Canada, but surely the government operations and estimates committee is the appropriate place for this information to flow. My concern with June 25 is that Parliament will be adjourned and this committee won't convene again until October, perhaps. What are we supposed to do with that information? How would it even be circulated from June 25 on?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
Those are good questions. We may come back to try and answer those questions.
Mr. Warkentin or Mr. Anders, either one.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
On the comment of how we would find this information, I imagine it would be circulated to our offices when we receive it. I don't suspect that we as a committee will undertake that much of a study in the collective during the summer. I don't think there's an anticipation that we'll be meeting during the summer.
I think June 25 is an appropriate timeframe. From what I understand, it will take some time for the information to be collected and distributed. I'd remind committee members that this is non-audited information, so we may not have all the information that we are expecting when it does arrive, in terms of the different things we've outlined. But I'm certain that we can cross-reference it with other things, to get that information in its entirety.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
I very much appreciate Mr. Martin's comments, and our preference, absolutely, would be to have this information by June 19. However, in recognizing the challenges we've had in getting this motion put forward, in the interest of moving it forward on a collective basis, we were willing to allow the extra time.
I want to say that I understand Mr. Warkentin's comments. I am supportive of the fact that we can receive this information through our offices. I can assure my colleagues that some of us will in fact be working through the summer, continuing to keep the government to account. Our jobs don't stop simply because the session stops; quite the contrary, so we will be looking at this information very carefully.
The motion is quite straightforward, so I don't want Mr. Warkentin's comments about, 'Well, it's not going to be audited and we may not actually get all of the information that we're expecting'.... I stress the language of the motion is very straightforward, that this is the information we are looking for and that is the information we expect to receive by June 25.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
On those points, and maybe I didn't express it well enough, I was questioning if there was an expectation that we would sit in the collective during the summer. I don't think there is, so certainly I said, as offices receive this information, we'll utilize it for our own purposes. But as a committee, even if we got it tomorrow, we wouldn't be utilizing it, I didn't think, in terms of a collective of the committee, with the anticipation that we might meet at some point before we resume.
I think that what we are expecting and what might be delivered, in terms of what's being asked for, given the wording specifically--“the most recent Central Financial Management Reporting System data”--might be two different things. Our expectations--we've seen it in this committee before when we've put forward a motion--compared to what is delivered may be two different things. I know what I'm expecting, but I can't speak for what other people might be expecting.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
Okay.
Well, we do have the wording of the motion.
Now that we've found so much common agreement here, I wouldn't want to spend time hypothetically trying to figure out how we might divide on this at a future point in time.
I think the prudent thing to do would be, if members are so advised, to adopt the motion. In terms of what we do with this information, as a committee, the chair would stand, advised by members from time to time. The clerk is here. He's very capable of getting the information distributed. It's not clear what format it will come in, but the clerk will, I'm sure, find something reasonable.
We're fully able to meet, if members so wish, over the summer. That's not a common thing, but committees do it. Just as the government would be closely managing the rollout of the stimulus package in the economic plan, so would the opposition parties and other parliamentarians on the government side want to monitor it just as closely, from their perspective as representatives of the taxpayer.
Having said that, if there's further debate, I'll recognize members. If there isn't, we'll go to a vote.
I don't see any further debate.
We have to adopt the amendment first.
(Amendment agreed to)
Thank you.
Now I'll put the main amendment as amended. All those in favour? It's unanimous.
Thank you, colleagues, and I offer a special thank you from the chair.
I think I saw agreement on the government side.
Conservative
