Government Operations Committee on Oct. 27th, 2009

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you.

Thank you for being here this afternoon.

I want to repeat what Mr. Martin said, how important it is to have this office and to expect you are there to do a job that needs to be done. But I would expect the frustration you're hearing from some of us around the table is probably only surpassed by your own, in terms of not being able to do the job you're intended to do. I appreciate that.

I know we're very frustrated because we hear time and again of initiatives under way, money flowing, announcements being made, but trying to get our hands on the actual information has been like pulling teeth. So I can understand where you're coming from, because we're feeling the same way.

When we talk about projects being announced and money supposedly flowing, we know that when you enter into an initiative with a province or a municipality you're not going to give thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars unless a definite project and timelines are put in place for the completion of that project. That information should be available. I can't imagine any government entering into any type of project without that being front and centre.

So I find it a little interesting when the federal government, on a Friday afternoon, quietly makes records public for $900 million in federal stimulus projects, but you're having trouble getting the information. Why that's happening is a million-dollar question, and of course—

[An hon. member]

It's $900 million.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

It's a $900 million question.

When you talk about having the type of reporting, you say, “Members of the Canadian Parliament should be able to expect a comparable level of reporting provided to legislatures in other international jurisdictions.” And, of course, through Canadian parliamentarians, then Canadians would.

I looked at the reporting mechanism used in the U.S. It's user-friendly. Anything you ever want to know about how the stimulus money is being spent in the U.S. is there. It's updated, if not on a daily basis.... I'm looking at one part here. The award progress was updated on October 10, and the distributing and reporting was updated on October 8. You can go through this and find out whatever information you need.

From your observation, would you say that with that type of reporting the American people are fully aware of how their stimulus money is being spent, the types of initiatives that are under way, and what is coming down the pipe for them?

[Kevin Page]

I would say there is definitely a gap between what the Parliament of Canada has in terms of infrastructure spending--the timeliness and quality of that information--and what the executive will demand of the United States in terms of reporting on the stimulus spending.

We tried to survey 15 OECD countries, and we were successful in surveying 11. We noticed there were two countries, Canada and the United States, that put in extraordinary measures around stimulus reporting. I think it's fair to say that a number of other countries had more robust quarterly reporting than what exists in Canada today. But of the 11 OECD jurisdictions we were able to survey, the United States certainly had the highest level, and there's a gap between Canada and the United States right now.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Based on the information you have, what percentage of the infrastructure projects are under way?

[Kevin Page]

Based on the full survey of infrastructure projects, both in the infrastructure stimulus funds and other related infrastructure projects, we're not in a position to really say. I've been told by the Deputy Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities that this week we will get information on the infrastructure stimulus fund. At that point we'll be able to provide you with information and assessment of what's under way vis-à-vis what was committed.

As you've already noted, that is a regular feature of the U.S. report. They highlight the commitments and the outlays or expenses related to those commitments. We don't have that reporting yet, but we hope we might get that in the fourth quarter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Madam Foote.

We'll now go to Monsieur Nadeau. Cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, gentlemen.

You have an extremely important job to do in terms of accountability. I understand that there are tools that you absolutely require and that you do not have access to, at least not easily. This is information that is "relatively simple" to obtain because it is basic.

Concerning the request you made to Public Works Canada, which you told us about today, did you finally receive the basic information, that is to say, the contents of the data base that is essential to your analyses?

[Kevin Page]

No, we have yet to receive it.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

You have not received it yet?

[Kevin Page]

No, we have no information.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Have you received any snippets of information at all?

[Kevin Page]

Yes.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Does it come in in dribbles or does it come in at a pace that allows you to proceed with your work?

[Kevin Page]

I am hoping that we will receive the information we requested from the Deputy Minister of the Department of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities this week.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

If I understand you correctly, you are asking for things that already exist, you are not calling for the creation of anything new, and you are not getting what you are asking for. In terms of transparency, this may give us something to think about. We absolutely have to spread the word among all parliamentarians.

In your assessment of the third report, you say: ...“to improve the quality and consistency of reported information...“. When you say this, you are asking the government to distinguish between committed funds and actual cash outlays. Is it not doing that?

[Kevin Page]

No, not yet. But as I said, I hope that,in the report on the next quarter, we will be able to see the distinction between committed and actual amounts.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

When you receive responses from government on some aspects, some 4,000 projects are mentioned—over 3,000 of which are underway—you get information, but no distinction is made between the amounts committed and the amounts actually disbursed.

It seems to me that the simple logic of your request is clear.

Do you not think it deserves a clear, consistent and speedy answer?

[Kevin Page]

Yes. I have been told that it is difficult and challenging to organize the figures that explain the expenditures, not just the financial commitments.

But, as you said, it is absolutely necessary to have information like expenditures in order to assess the economic impact.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

The government is talking about creating 220,000 jobs, or something of the sort, which seems like an interesting figure. Do you know how the government came up with that figure so that you can say that, yes, we are heading in the right direction, and that, at the end of the day, there will indeed be 220,000 jobs or more created?

[Kevin Page]

There are two figures. The government says it is possible to create 220,000 jobs through economic stimulus measures. I do not understand how it arrived at that figure, because, in budget 2009, it gave another figure, 200,000 jobs. Clearly, it looks like the government used a simulation model to arrive at these figures.

It is important for the parliamentary budget officer to closely monitor these figures as they are updated. It is possible that the labour market may be far weaker than estimated in the 2009 budget.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Right.

You are recommending a preliminary impact analysis of the economic stimulus measures. That is more or less what you have just told us. At this point, can you identify aspects of this analysis so that the public, government and the main stakeholders can be told where the government plan will take us?

[Kevin Page]

To calculate and assess positive and negative effects of economic stimulus measures, we must get information on disbursements and not just on earmarked funds. We can use various simulation models and correlation techniques. Very simple models exist, linear models like the autoregressive model—

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Can these models tell us where we are headed or will we have to wait five years to get an answer?

[Kevin Page]

The models exist and they are being used in the United States.