Government Operations Committee on Oct. 27th, 2009

[Kevin Page]

The Receiver General asks for financial statements from departments, and they're provided to the Receiver General. We see them at a very aggregate level through fiscal monitors and things of that nature during the course of the year. Otherwise, we're waiting for the public accounts, which is 18 months later, after the authorities have provided them.

What we're trying to do is something quite different, actually. It's to use these budget implementation reports to give you something that's more real time. But what are we asking for? We're asking basically for the kind of information that's provided under Treasury Board guidelines to the Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

For my last question, you told us what Canada's fourth progress report could include. Have you suggested that to the government, because that's what the U.S. is using? The outlays to date from government commitments would be easy to maintain. Would you respond?

Then I'll take your point of order, Mr. Holder.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Madam Chair, on a point of order, does a point of order not take precedence over a response to a question? I think that's the protocol.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Fair enough.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you.

If I might, that was your third question. I know my time was cut short because there wasn't--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

We gave you five minutes.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

No, you gave me four minutes, Madam Chair, respectfully. That's what you told me. But if you've given me five, then--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

But I went to five minutes, sir. I did. I actually looked at the time.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

All right.

So my practical question is--because it seems to me that we're having a series of questions again--would the government side have an opportunity to ask more questions again, as a result of this?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Holder, normal practice is for a chair to ask questions. I sit neutral, I listen to what is being asked, and you have not. You got into partisan questions. All I'm doing is trying to find the flow of process, follow the money. If you had asked the follow-the-money question, I wouldn't have had the need to ask the question. That is why I was asking the question, for clarification. I made no practical statements.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Perhaps, Madam Chair, you might have directed that question through members of your party, but in the--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

No, sir. I stay neutral. I have the right to do it.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

You might, but you talked in terms of the frustration of this committee and I'd suggest that this whole committee is not all frustrated. That was a direct quote of what you said. Actually, I don't feel particularly frustrated. I share the confidence of this--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Fair enough.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Well, you're in the ruling party. You have access to all the information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Fair enough. Okay.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

But Madam Chair--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Your point of order is taken, yes.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

If it is taken, I would simply say that in the committees I've been involved with--again, as the newest member--I've not seen the chair be so participatory. So I'm only trying to understand if that's the case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I'm sorry, Mr. Holder, but you are probably too new to committees. If you sat on public accounts, in the public accounts committee the chair asks the questions in between everybody else's questions. And we're being courteous to each other.

I listened intently. I went down to the final point until I wrapped up, and I wrapped up because you had not asked the relevant questions. It is important for the chair to listen to everyone and see what is missing, and when the chair realizes what is missing, the chair has to summarize that this is what she heard, the frustration from everyone.

The question I needed to pose to Mr. Page was why it was difficult to track the money. He has 3,000 projects. How many departments are responsible and what is the confusion, so that when next time we ask a budget officer to come before us, we need to know the flow of process. It is important for us to know, because otherwise we are asking questions that sometimes the officer cannot answer. If we understand the flow of process, we will be able to ask the questions.

Mr. Page, would you mind answering? What is the number of departments that are involved in those 3,000 projects? Do you have any idea?

[Sahir Khan]

In terms of administration of the program, our understanding is that this falls within the rubric of the Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure, so it would be one department administering the program under the policies of the Treasury Board.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

So now, to avoid confusion, could you do us a favour and show us how the budget officer approaches following the flow of money by giving us a flow chart, so that we do not go into this confusion? We need to understand so that it makes your job easy and our jobs easy, so it facilitates our thinking. It's important for us to ask you the right questions. We do not need to go into partisanship; we need to know that you, the budget officer, are protecting and are giving us the health of the nation's finances. There has been speculation that this money will go back to the consolidated revenue fund so that the deficit that is projected will be reduced. If that's the speculation, we need to know that.

With that, I would like you to have the final remarks, and then we will suspend the meeting for a little while.

Mr. Page.

[Kevin Page]

We'll be happy to provide to the committee a flow chart that starts with the budget, with the provision of authorities, with disbursements, how those disbursements are tracked through the course of the year, how they're reported on in plans and priority documents through the estimates process and the department performance reports, how they're reported on through the public accounts, and the role that is played through these budget implementation reports that we have now. As well, as we look forward, under Bill C-51 there's a new provision now for departments to provide additional quarterly reports, which might be impacted as well as this flow chart.

We would be happy to provide that flow chart for you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Do you have any final remarks to make?

You have a point of order, Madam Findlay?

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I just want to add to the point of order, in support of you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the concerns, but in the finance committee earlier today the Conservative chair of the committee asked some very helpful and extensive questions. It is appropriate for the chair to ask questions and to participate. I just wanted to say that. It does happen with all parties.