Government Operations Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

If I may interrupt, and I don't like to do that, what you have just given to me is exactly the same thing we have been hearing for months. You've referred to announcements, you've referred to amounts—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I hadn't completed my answer.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

You've referred to announcements.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I hadn't completed my answer.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

You referred to amounts of money being committed—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I hadn't completed my answer.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

—and I will refer to the information we are seeing being given to the American public, which includes specifics about money actually being spent.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

If I may finish my question—

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

It's a point of order.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Your answer was not answering my question, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Minister and Madam Hall Findlay, I have a point of order to address.

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

There has been a question asked. Why don't we give the opportunity to the minister to answer it?

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I started to give that opportunity and—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Madam Hall Findlay, I need to respond to him.

When a witness is here and you have your eight minutes, you can cut off the witness if the witness is not giving you the information you want. That's her prerogative, and it will be your prerogative if you want to say the same thing. I now would like to proceed with the questioning.

Your point of order has been taken. It is out of order, really, because you have no right to tell another member—

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

She's cutting off the witness when he's giving his answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

That's her prerogative.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

That's not just against the rules, Madam, it's rude.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

That's her prerogative, and I'm moving on.

Martha Hall Findlay.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I sure hope, Madam Chair, that his intervention did not actually take away from the time allotted to me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

No, it won't be taken away.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I stress that I am asking for answers, and if the minister is not in fact providing satisfactory answers, then I will insist on getting answers that are satisfactory. It is not satisfactory to be told once again about announcements; announcements do not create jobs.

We have been asking, and the Parliamentary Budget Officer has been asking, for detailed information about moneys spent and jobs that have been created. My question was not about announcements, but very specifically about why the Parliamentary Budget Officer has not been given the information he has requested.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Madam Chair, I'm going to go back to completing the answer, because I think it was an important point.

What I had said before I was interrupted was that earlier today we provided the Parliamentary Budget Officer with even more detailed data to allow him to conduct his financial analysis per his mandate. We provided him, as I was just about to say, with three boxes of information to assist him in conducting his job, and we'll continue to do that.

In the United States, they did set up an agency that cost over $100 million for communications and promotion of the various infrastructure grants. We have not gone down that road with respect to municipalities and provinces, telling them every day they have to define how many tonnes of steel have been used or how much payroll has gone out.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Minister, I think the following question is relevant to everyone here as witnesses. It deals with the accountability of accounting officers within the framework of ministerial accountability. This is our law. I'm quoting from the statute:

...the accounting officer of a department...is accountable before the appropriate committees of the Senate and the House of Commons for

(a) the measures taken to organize the resources of the department to deliver departmental programs in compliance with government policies and procedures;

(b) the measures taken to maintain effective systems of internal control in the department;

(c) the signing of the accounts that are required to be kept for the preparation of the Public Accounts pursuant to section 64;

As we heard from the Parliamentary Budget Officer, and have heard repeatedly from others as well, there is significant frustration within the departments at not actually being able to give full information. Based on this, those accounting officers must have that detailed information available, but they are not in a position, or have not been able, to give that information required by law.

Is it not inappropriate to be putting public servants in that type of position when they know what their obligations are to us as parliamentarians and to the Canadian people, but are being prevented from...arguably for political reasons? Do you not believe that's putting the civil servants in a very difficult position?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I wrote that section from which you read. It was part of the Federal Accountability Act.

Could you name me a single public servant who has expressed frustration?