Government Operations Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I'm not asking for the information on how much your partners have spent. We are asking how much this government has spent. You cannot create a job if you can't write somebody a cheque for his or her wages. We are asking the government how much money has been spent so far. We have heard announcement after announcement. The government is benefiting from all these wonderful let's-pat-ourselves-on-the-back announcements. We continue to ask for details on how much the federal government has spent. We understand that you cut the cheques only after you receive the invoices, but you can't tell me that you don't have a record of the cheques that the federal government has signed.

How much money has this government spent so far? We need the answer to this question to get some idea of how many jobs have been created. The Parliamentary Budget Officer has asked. We have asked. It's a simple question: can you tell us how much money the federal government has spent so far under this program?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll ask the deputy minister to respond. But first I want to correct the record. You said that if the federal government hasn't issued a cheque, no jobs have been created. That's not true. Once we make an announcement, those municipalities, those provinces, and other not-for-profit groups are free to begin to spend money immediately. We tell them not to wait—they have the green light. So jobs can be created before cheques are issued.

I'd like to turn this over to the deputy minister.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I asked the deputy minister a question and I'd appreciate an answer.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

We won't know exactly how much they have spent until the bills arrive.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

No?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

We don't spend until we get invoices.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

But when you spend, you must know what you've spent.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Of course we do.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I don't ask the provincial government—

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

I'm trying to give you examples of where the spending is. For example, there have been advances that have been paid. We have that number.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Then why do we not have that number? Those are the numbers we are asking for.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

I believe, Minister, you have mentioned the advances to provinces.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

We have not had an answer to this simple question, and we've been asking for months. How much money has the federal government spent to date? We need to compare that number with the announcements that are being taken full advantage of. Simple question: how much money has the federal government spent so far?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Maybe I can explain the way the programs work.

When the commitment is made, our partners start to work, and that means economic activity starts taking place. They hire engineering firms or do certain kinds of construction, and when it is time for them to report, they send us the bills, which we pay.

So we have the full picture of economic activity in terms of the projects, and we have given it to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. We don't have information on the actual spending until the bills come in.

I think you might want to look at spending versus commitment. There are too many pieces of the puzzle.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

We just want information on federal spending, and we don't have the answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I know we were both elected by Canadians, and I have a job that's very similar to hers, but is she telling me that she gets paid before she works for a month?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Are you addressing this here?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I'm just curious. This is a point of order. She mentioned that people don't work without getting paid in advance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

What is your point of order? What standing order did she violate?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

She didn't. It is a point of order to ask specifically—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

She is allowed to ask questions like you are allowed to ask questions, so I really want to go—

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

She just mentioned that her job wasn't created without money going first. I'm sure she worked for 30 days before she got paid. That's what I do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You can look at the blues.

Mr. Holder, you have five minutes.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have a comment and a question. Mr. Brown would like to have a comment and a question as well.

I was part of the group in the past meeting that had the opportunity to listen to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. I want to remind members around the table what Mr. Page said about the reporting. He acknowledged that he'd received three reports thus far, and each report was better than the previous one. He had no reason to believe that the fourth one wouldn't be better still. He indicated he was looking forward to receiving the reports as he had requested.

I was quite pleased that the Parliamentary Budget Officer took an optimistic and positive view. I need to put that on the table, because the politics of politics sometimes doesn't get the complete story out.

I come from a business background and have a sense of running a small multi-million dollar company. But on cashflows in and out, it's a very complex process. I'm not sure whether all the folks around the table are aware of the magnitude of this, with almost 8,000 projects out there. That's phenomenal.

I'd like to compliment all of our guests here--our department officials and ministers. I think it's a huge undertaking to do this as promptly as you have.

I've also heard broad references around the table that somehow preferential treatment has been given to government ridings and the like. I've referenced before some “gotcha” politics that need to be taken out of the equation in this.

Minister Baird, are you aware whether any provinces or municipal leaders have complained that infrastructure dollars might have been directed for Conservative Party gain?