Government Operations Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Sure I can.

We've been working very closely with the provinces and the municipalities. We have 280 announced projects in Alberta on the go. The federal portion is almost a billion dollars; it's $975 million. The total cost of those projects...they are almost leveraged. They're actually a little bit more than three to one, so it's a little over $3 billion in Alberta alone. When it comes to Saskatchewan, we're talking 390 projects. Federal money is $450 million, but that is leveraged and it's almost three to one as well. It's $1.2 billion.

When you look at our stimulus program, because we want this money out, as I said, timely, targeted and so on, in Alberta we're very close to 100% of the stimulus money allocated and announced. And in Saskatchewan we're also very close to the 100%. So we are moving to push the provinces and moving on accelerating the $33 billion, which is Building Canada funds. Some of those funds are accelerated, the base funding as well as the major infrastructure funding.

To give you an idea of what's happening, particularly in Alberta, the $100 million in a ring road around Edmonton was actually only one intersection. It was engineered for $300 million as a cost. It was actually tendered and came in at $168 million. So those are the kinds of savings we're seeing. When I talk to Minister Ouellette, who is in charge of transportation in Alberta, and Minister Snelgrove, they're telling me they're getting bids right across the province on all these projects that are anywhere from a 20% to a 50% reduction for actually building them this year compared with building them this time last year.

So we are getting the job done. We're putting many Albertans and many Saskatchewan people to work, and I believe that's reflected right across the country.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Mr. Minister, earlier, in your presentation, you talked about VIA Rail.

VIA Rail plays a key role for travellers across the country. This summer in Montreal, I had the pleasure, on behalf of our government, of announcing the new F-40 locomotives. We could see how proud the VIA Rail workers were about this project and to what extent this is important to the future of the corporation.

Thousands of people use VIA Rail every day. Since 2007, the government has invested more than $1 billion to improve this infrastructure, including $407 million from Canada's economic action plan.

Mr. Minister, could you tell us the status of these projects and how the users can benefit from them?

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Yes. You should be very proud of VIA Rail. It's a national institution, and as you said, we've put in almost $1 billion over a two-year period—$407 million of that in this economic action plan.

And thank you very much for helping out with the announcement on the F-40 locomotives, a $100 million project.

We have another $98 million in New Brunswick to refurbish 79 light rapid comfortable passenger rail cars. We are getting a lot of Canadians working on a lot of infrastructure through the dollars that VIA Rail is investing to put it on a sustainable course.

The big thing we're doing is on the corridor from Windsor to Quebec City, with the refurbishing not only of the engines and the cars, but also of the rail.

And we have done even more than that. To understand, VIA Rail doesn't have its own lines so it has to negotiate with CN or CP to run on their lines. Those negotiations with VIA--which were addressed by the Auditor General in the last study--have been dealt with at this stage, and we are progressing very aggressively to refurbish the lines so that VIA can accelerate the speed. It may be a bit messy right now, like most renovations, but when it's all done you're going to have a half hour faster ride between Toronto and Montreal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Monsieur Gourde, you have two minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Okay, no problem.

CATSA plays a major role in ensuring the security of Canada's air transportation system. As hon. members know full well, every passenger of a commercial flight has to go through pre-flight screening. The 2009 budget allocated $355 million to CATSA.

Mr. Minister, could you give us more details on this major investment?

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

It's an important investment. Last year there was $240 million, but there is another $355.7 million investment in CATSA.

When it comes to security, we take it very seriously. With regard to security at our airports, we're going to have to invest in the best of technologies to make sure we don't fall behind our international counterparts. It's absolutely critical that we keep pace.

A lot of this $355.7 million is invested in new technology to get us where we need to go. There are 125 new multi-view X-ray scanners to make sure that luggage and carry-on luggage is dealt with using the best of equipment. We have added dozens of new screening lines across the country so we increase the flow and make sure we not only have state-of-the-art technology but we're not holding up traffic.

We have 10 portable security units for the Olympics, to make sure the Olympics are about the athletes and not about any kind of a threat. We are prepared for what's going to happen in the Olympics and we are very proud of where CATSA is going with regard to investing these dollars. We're also putting many Canadians to work at the same time, because it's very labour-intensive work that CATSA does. It's not only high-cost equipment, but there are a lot of dollars being spent on employment. This is indeed a stimulus, but it's more about security than stimulus when it comes to CATSA.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I think Minister Baird wants to answer.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Actually it's about the matter earlier.

Because of my high regard and respect for the member for Willowdale, and for the vice-chair, the member for Winnipeg Centre, and to prevent my officials from being held against their will, we've cleared our schedules so we can all stay...at least the deputy and I can stay until 5 p.m.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that.

We will now go to Mr. Martin.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Gracious to a fault, as always, Mr. Minister.

Sir, you will be the first to admit that oversight of the executive is a key function of Parliament. In fact it's a constitutional right and duty of parliamentarians to rigidly oversee spending of the executive.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Are you asking me?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

No, I think you will agree with me there; I think we could take that as a given. I know you and I have worked on the Federal Accountability Act--

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

As it is for the government to maintain the confidence of the House every day.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Well, this is key, too. So far you've been lucky enough to maintain that--with some help from your friends, of course. Yes, with a little help from your friends.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer I think was one of the most important things we did in the Federal Accountability Act. We are very proud of that achievement. It's a necessary office. He does a great job. His frustration was palpable and tangible when he appeared before our committee. He said the information that he's given to assess on our behalf was...he says the government's report is uneven information, inconsistent in its presentation, lacks the appropriate disclosures necessary, etc. In other words, it's a polite way of saying he was handed a pile of incomprehensible financial gobbledygook, that he's had a difficult time assessing whether the figures he's been given have any relationship whatsoever to the claims being made.

Wouldn't you agree with me, Minister, that an effective way to conceal hanky-panky is to couch it in financial reporting that's incomprehensible? In a way, it gets to be a matter of privilege in that we're being denied the information we need to do our job as parliamentarians to oversee the executive office. More and more it seems like there's this elaborate shell game taking place so that we can't figure out if the stimulus spending is achieving the goals you claimed it would achieve.

He's put forward some really helpful templates in his report, in his assessment of your third report to Parliament. He suggests that if the information were laid out in a way that was easily understood, in plain language, financially, we would all be better off. Have you seen the template that he recommends, and have you considered providing information to him in these simple one-page documents that outline the projected spending, the estimated job creation, and the realized benefit from each individual project?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Earlier today we gave a significant amount of information to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Obviously, we get the information from provinces and municipalities when they do their quarterly reports. I haven't seen the document in front of you, but I'd welcome the opportunity to review it.

I, like you, agree that it's important, the check on the government. I do think that you should know and be reminded that every single project that is approved is immediately posted on the website--the project, the location, the dollar amount, and the funding partners. We think that's substantial. The Parliamentary Budget Officer would like more, and we're very pleased to work with him in that regard.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

He's probably begging for mercy right now. I think you dumped 4,000 pages on his desk today, did you not? I mean, we don't know.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Across the government, I think there are some 7,600 projects, so we're dealing with a lot of work, no doubt about it. Just as, if you want these one-page forms, when you have 7,600 projects, that means 7,600 pages. My first priority I think is to have the officials work with provinces and municipalities in getting the money disbursed.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It seems to us at this committee that the government reporting so far has been long on propaganda and short on any meaningful information. There's no yardstick we can measure progress by. We have an unprecedented amount of money flying out the door at breakneck speed. We were concerned at the front end that there would be compromises in due diligence, etc., but we were willing to help you fast-track that money to get it out into the community. At the very least, we need to be able to measure whether or not it's having the desired effect.

Let's face it, this spending is driving us into a deficit situation of billions and billions and billions of dollars. I'm not going to get into the debate about where the money is being spent. I think a lot of NDP ridings actually fared fairly favourably from the spending, so I have no evidence that there's any hanky-panky going on in where the money went. We want to know, though, if the money was necessary.

You're checking to see that the journalists got that.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I just always like to look at my friend, the badger.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Minister, what can you say that would assure us that the information will be in a clear, transparent, comprehensible manner so that the parliamentarians here can do their job in assessing the veracity of the claims being made by the government, and that it's having the desired effect, so that we're not driving ourselves into a sea of red ink without the corresponding measurable outcomes?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Listen, we provided a substantial additional amount of information to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. I have an indication from you, your concern that it might be too much information. I'm happy to review the documents that you've cited and to look at them.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I notice the Parliamentary Budget Officer also did a comparison study. It's a very interesting report. He actually compared the reporting in the United States on their stimulus package to the way Canada reports ours, and he found us severely lacking. I urge you to have a look at that page in the report too, because the Obama regime in the States is being a lot more open and transparent, and it's a lot easier to understand not only where the spending is going but the projected outcomes.

In a previous meeting, I used the example of Wal-Mart. Now if Wal-Mart can tell you every pair of jeans that is sold at every one of their stores in real time on a graph—so sales of jeans are going this way, sales of shoes are going that way.... If they can figure out how to do that with far more financial transactions than the Government of Canada has, surely we can design a way to be transparent about how we're doing in this particular stimulus package.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I am stunned. I am stunned that you would cite a union-busting large employer who doesn't provide health care to employees as—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I should know better than to give you an opportunity like that.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I find this most interesting.