Government Operations Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You know, I'm actually pretty proud when I look on balance at all the infrastructure programs under our department. We've been trying to be careful to ensure that all areas benefit. Frankly, if our goal is to create jobs and we were to spend the money all in one part of the country, every contractor would be quickly busy and there would be a line-up, which wouldn't spread the wealth.

If you look at the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, we have not always had the best relationship with the province, but Mr. Williams, the premier, put politics aside. It was the first government we came to an agreement with on how to spend the infrastructure spending. Do you know what? The jobs were created a little bit faster as a result of that.

If you look at the Province of Ontario—and I used to sit in the Ontario legislature in opposition as the critic to the current minister of infrastructure—we put aside politics and worked fairly well together.

If you look at the Province of Manitoba, with the Doer government, and now the Selinger government, I think on balance we work pretty well together.

I think if you look at the Province of Quebec, the Premier of Quebec has made some comments recently in an announcement in Pontiac. I think by and large we have worked fairly well.

We've been able to work...I haven't heard a single complaint at a senior level from any of the provinces or territories. We've managed to work with them well. We've tried to distribute it fairly. Newfoundland and Labrador, despite the fact it didn't elect a single returning member, got its full per capita share, because that's the approach we took.

Is every square inch going to get the same amount? Probably not. But on balance, I think it has been fairly well distributed. If you look around the country and talk to Denise Savoie, the member for Victoria, she pushed hard for a project that I was able to announce only the other day. If you look at Halifax, we announced a new library. If you look at Madame Gagnon-Tremblay in the Province of Quebec, we've been able to work together. We have always ensured that we respect provincial jurisdiction, because that is something that is fundamentally important.

Look at the investments we have made in Sault Ste. Marie. I was in the east side of Vancouver with the member for Vancouver East, making two announcements to help aboriginal Canadians who live in her constituency.

We haven't been perfect, but I think by and large we've been pretty good. It's a bit much to hear someone like Ken Dryden get up and say we are not spending the money fairly, when his riding got the largest amount of infrastructure in the country. I think by and large it has been fairly well distributed. I'm pretty proud of that.

I think Canadians, in this unprecedented economic downturn, don't just expect, they demand, that their elected representatives work together, and we have seen an unprecedented amount of that. Frankly, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities has been incredibly complimentary about the officials within my department for the excellent job they've done. They have worked their butts off with their team to make these decisions.

I couldn't ask for a stronger team at the federal level. We couldn't ask for better cooperation with provinces and territories. Every single one of them of any political party have put aside petty politics, and I think that speaks well of all of them. Frankly, when people see different parties working together, they're really pleased.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Baird, I have to cut you off.

We have a last, very quick question, because the time is up for them.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Baird, I want to make sure I understand that your officials have to report the numbers only when they receive invoices, after projects have been approved. I have a few comments to make about that.

People, whether parliamentarians or the general public, do not necessarily know the numbers because they are waiting for data from the provinces and the municipalities. You must have received some applications. If you could share some of the numbers, that might give the public and parliamentarians an idea of what this all means.

On October 9, the Public Service Commission released the results of its audit. It found that in the 45 appointment files it reviewed, essential qualifications were not respected when it came to hiring. In the framework of this economic stimulus plan, additional staff were hired who did not have the qualifications stipulated in the Public Service Employment Act.

Given that this stimulus plan was put together quite quickly, how can you expect us to trust the numbers you are giving us? Furthermore, these numbers give you a lot of political mileage, whereas we do not even have the numbers and cannot give you any feedback on them. For now, you can tell the public whatever you want. We cannot even verify what you are saying.

Thank you, Mr. Baird.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

In fairness—and I have great respect for the work that you do on this committee and great respect for your role as a member of Parliament—you just said two things: one, that we aren't giving you any numbers; and two, how can we trust the numbers we're giving you, which is very difficult.

Every time a commitment is made, the starting pistol goes off and money can be expended. If the project can't start for two months because they have to order the steel and concrete, obviously they don't pay for that steel or concrete until it arrives, and then an invoice is made.

I would encourage you or third parties, if you seek clarification from the provincial government of Quebec, or if you talk to individual municipalities, to ask them how their projects are going. If there are any concerns about how they are going, in your constituency or elsewhere, I would be very open to responding to any concern.

I think the one biggest discussion we have before any decision is made is about whether the project is eligible for funding. On rare occasions we have to seek an exemption, or there's a funding amount that can be somewhat different, depending on the project. For example, we did a library in Halifax for which we gave $18 million, as I recall; the province only gave $13 million, and the municipality had to come up with the difference. There might be the odd exception that has to be made, such as that.

I'll turn it over to the deputy, if she can add anything else.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Thank you.

Madam Chairman, the member has asked for the commitments. That's exactly what we have given to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. It's also on our website.

Regarding the Public Service Commission audit, the department has received and has accepted the audit, and we have an action plan in place. However, I would like to point to the fact that the audit timeframe was January 2006 to August 2008, which was before the economic action plan had started. By the time the economic action plan had started, the department had taken significant steps to basically bring more capacity into a relatively small but mighty department.

The people in my department are proud of the work they do and are very honoured that they're part of delivering projects that mean quite a lot for the Canadian economy. We're very proud and we stand behind our numbers, in terms of whatever numbers we have.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I could add just one little point. I said—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Minister, I will give you one minute to wrap up, but first, give me a second.

I've been listening to all the questions that have been asked, and generally the confusion comes because we do not have a clear idea of the application process, the approval of the commitment, and then the spending and the outcomes. Do you have a flow chart that clarifies how this happens?

I think a very relevant question has been asked. That is, since March 2009 this stimulus funding has been in place. Have there been invoices submitted? If so, how much are they for? Could that be given to us by the officials? It appears that the Parliamentary Budget Officer still doesn't have that information.

If you have claims, or if you don't have claims, just tell us that the claims have not arrived or that the claims have arrived and here is what we have paid, because you must have cut cheques. If that could be done, I think it would clarify, and we won't have to go through this round again. We would really like to bring this study to an end.

We appreciate your being here. We appreciate that you have your right to say what the government wants to do, but we would like the public servants to be honest and open and say what they have done: this is the reality, here are the numbers, and here is how you can verify.

With that, I would request Minister Merrifield to make any closing remarks he may wish to make.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I thank the committee for their questions. I think they're valid and good questions.

What is important is to understand that what we're trying to do is get Canadians through this global economic slowdown in the best way we possibly can, creating as many jobs as we can.

When it comes to the numbers, it's not so important whether the bill was submitted last month and paid this month as it is that the point when the starting gun goes is when the project was announced and the municipalities and provinces are prepared to move on those projects. The money will come and flow in due process.

We have professional people in the department who take their job very seriously. That's why they are doing that job very professionally and making sure that due diligence is done on this. I think Canadians can rest assured that this is the way it's being run.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Minister.

Minister Baird.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

In response, I also think the question was rather thoughtful from the Bloc Québécois representative on the committee: are we just to take the federal government's word for it? We're sending a substantial amount of information--on the web, and here today, and to the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

I would encourage each member of the committee, whether the chair or another, to sit down with the mayor of their municipality. Sit down with Mayor Miller and ask him how the relationship has been. Sit down with the provincial minister of infrastructure and ask him about the relationship and get specific on-the-ground progress reports. I think that would be of great benefit to you.

I would encourage my friend Mr. Martin to sit down with Ron Lemieux or Greg Selinger in Manitoba and the City of Winnipeg. Ask them how it has gone. I could go on to each member of the committee.

I think there has been a pretty good partnership, and that's a significant check to ensure that taxpayers' dollars are spent wisely and well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you all for being here, and thank you for staying until five o'clock.

Before you leave, let me say that, as you can appreciate, the only frustration has arisen when things are stated and we can't see the real dollars; that's where our issue is. So we will be sending a note over to the deputy minister for clarification and for information that we have requested.

Oui, madame.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Madam Chair, I am not talking to Quebec's cities and municipalities today. I am talking to Minister Baird.

As much as you respect Quebec's jurisdictions, which I appreciate greatly, I respect those of my mayors and the Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités. I do not find it very amusing that you are asking me to address my questions to the mayors. Minister Baird, I am here to represent the people of my riding and to ask you questions. I prefer to be in touch with you than with my mayor.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Holder.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thanks very much.

I thought we all had our appropriate rounds and opportunities to speak. If we're going to go through rounds again, I'd like to have another opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

No, we're not going into further rounds. I just recognized her because I thought she had some motion or something.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I thought it was a point of order as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Mr. Jean, you had put your hand up. The floor is yours.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I was just going to refer the chair to page 827 of Marleau and Montpetit in relation to the role of the chair, specifically what the role of the chair is:

The Chair of a committee is responsible for recognizing members and witnesses who seek the floor and ensuring that any rules established by the committee concerning the apportioning of speaking time are respected. Furthermore, the Chair is also responsible for maintaining order in committee proceedings. However, the Chair does not have the power to censure disorder or decide questions of privilege; this can only be done by the House upon receiving a report from the committee.

I have looked at the role of the chair, the role of vice-chairs, acting chairs, elections, etc., and nowhere do I see that specifically the chair can ask questions directly of the witnesses.

I am a little curious about that, because I have seen it many times, and I was wondering.... You have the clerk next to you, and certainly it seems as though it would be an appropriate situation, but it does not refer to it in Marleau and Montpetit. I was wondering whether that could be clarified.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Since you have the book, you can go to page 862 and look at the two paragraphs, under “Testimony” and the one before it.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

I want to let committee members know the order of business for next week.

For November 3, we had requested the Minister of Treasury Board to come, but he's not able to come. He's going to send his deputy minister. I think we are fine with that, because we wanted to do the study on the advertising aspect of it.

I want to let you know that the Clerk of the Privy Council is confirmed to appear, along with another official. The President of the Treasury Board is unable to attend, so Ms. Michelle d'Auray, Secretary of the Treasury Board, is ready to come.

On Thursday, November 5, we have the public service commissioner confirmed.

Is there any other business?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I was just wondering, Madam Chair.... I'll refer you to that particular page, if I may: “Committee members are usually given priority in the questioning of witnesses” over the chair. Is that, indeed, the normal course of the business in this?

I'm just asking because the allocation for witnesses is obviously.... Mr. Brown, for instance, hasn't asked a question in a month. And quite frankly, the questioning you had was, in my mind, more than ten minutes in length; I can check that out in the blues. Just your interference between each segment of the questioning.... It seems to me that your role as chair is taking up quite a bit of the time of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I would suggest that you look at the framework of the time I spent. I introduced and welcomed the ministers; I advised them what we were here to study.

The only time I will interject is when I find that the witnesses and the members are at cross-purposes, when they don't understand each other. But I do not think I go.... I actually watch the clock.

Mr. Brown had his time not given.... There's an allocation; there's a process. And if your time—

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Well, I agree, there is an allocation, and it's actually covered by the rules, Madam Chair.