Thank you very much.
There are two directions of conversation here. I understand, Madam Barrados, the concerns you have raised about partisanship in the public service that relate to public servants who want to participate or who do participate in political activity.
My concern is about those public servants who actually do not want to participate in partisan activity, but who, because of the pressures now being exerted upon them, somehow either feel obliged to participate in it or feel they are being subjected to it.
I was quite struck by your comment about the need for public servants to be seen as impartial by the people they work for because they need to be seen as being able to serve any political party. I understand why you said that, but it struck me, because my impression is that the public service is there to actually serve the Canadian public. I will go back to the earlier comment, quoted from your own report, that “Canadians need to be confident that public servants administer, and are perceived as administering, programs and services in a professional and non-partisan manner”.
I really want to focus back--and again, not on those who want to participate in political activity and need to know where those lines are--on those who don't want to but are feeling pressured to participate in partisan activities and programs. We in this committee have had a very hard time getting information, particularly information on government spending. My concern is that public servants have a number of responsibilities to fulfill in their jobs in compliance with government policies and rules, not political ones. In some cases, such as that of accounting officers, the Accountability Act specifically provides that they're accountable to the appropriate committees of the Senate and House of Commons.
Recently we were refused the participation of certain public servants without the presence of the minister in question. We actually asked the public servants to stay longer, but we were denied that opportunity. They granted us an extra 20 minutes or half an hour, but that was only if the minister also stayed.
We had a very hard time getting information and we continue to have a very hard time getting information. We had representatives from the PCO here just recently, as well as those from Treasury Board, and the overwhelming impression we have is that there's a significant level of discomfort.
To the extent that you have public servants who have an obligation to the Canadian public and to us in terms of our roles as parliamentarians and being on this committee, is that ultimately not putting them in a very difficult position? Does that not go back, ultimately, to your responsibility for them and for their jobs?
When you said earlier that you would look at corrective actions to deal with specific situations, what kind of corrective action can you actually engage in for a situation that appears to be increasingly politicized, with people who are either serving at the pleasure of the Prime Minister or appointed based on the recommendation of the Prime Minister? What kind of corrective action would you recommend given the concerns I've now raised?