Evidence of meeting #45 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
The Government of Ontario put that on their agreements without asking the Government of Canada. It was a mistake by the Ontario government, and that has been confirmed by the minister, so just because the logo is there--
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
That was Minister Baird, at the committee I sit on. That exact question was asked of the minister yesterday. The logo was put on that document by the Government of Ontario without the permission of the Government of Canada and the ministry.
Madam Hall Findlay thinks because the logo is there it is implied that--
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Well then find the words that say the province has to do mandatory reporting to the Government of Canada. They are not there.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Mayes, for that information. I expect the minister is going to try to say the same thing to us, or at least have departmental officials say that.
The contribution agreement specifically says in the preamble—and I say this after some 25 years of practising law—that this agreement defines the terms and conditions of a financial contribution from the Government of Canada and the Government of Ontario to assist with projects. There is an overarching agreement between the Government of Canada and the provinces. I would be very interested to know whether that particular agreement in fact permits the provinces not to disclose this information. Because of the laws of agency and the laws applicable to incorporating documents by reference and parties by reference, there is absolutely, in my view, an entitlement on behalf of the Government of Canada to obtain the job creation reports, and I will also say that it is the Government of Canada that is spending millions of dollars advertising that it apparently is creating jobs and has no information to substantiate that.
I will also add that it was very troubling that departmental officials volunteered that they weren't tracking jobs.
I would then ask if there is anyone who can tell me, based on all of this legal analysis, that the Government of Canada is not entitled to see those job reports. Why on earth are they not? On what basis do they have the gall to actually claim any job creation numbers?
I would actually ask the members opposite. I have offered some language to address the concern about information that has not been received. The last quarterly report under the contribution agreement was supposed to have been provided by the middle of last month, so to comply with the December 8 date should absolutely be possible.
I would ask that we look at those amendments, because they make it much simpler to address the concerns of my colleague Mr. Holder.
I would ask that, Madam Chair, you read out those changes and that we vote on the motion.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
I have Madam Coady who wishes to speak.
Madam Coady, then Mr. Holder.
Liberal
Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
As a member of Parliament, I have a fiduciary and actually a legal responsibility to review this information. The Government of Canada has made this part of their stimulus package. It is incumbent upon me to review this.
Having said that, in appreciation of what's been said here today, I sit on the industry, science and technology committee. We had ACOA come before our committee. ACOA is responsible for the stimulus money in Atlantic Canada, and they did have the job numbers.
There are job numbers available. They are available. I think Mr. Martin may be correct. It may be a bit complex in terms of language, but certainly the intent is to ask for what information they have and if they could table it for us to review. That's the intent of the motion, if they're available.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Can I just read the exact answer that we received in our committee yesterday?
To be very clear, the Canada-Ontario infrastructure stimulus agreement does not have a schedule H.
Okay. It does not have a schedule H.
We do not collect the job level information. The schedule H the honourable member is referring to is in the Ontario and municipalities agreement. The federal government is not a signatory to that particular agreement
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
I'll answer that very question by reading from the contribution agreement. It incorporates a reference to the Government of Canada assistance.
The really big question here is what on earth this government is trying to hide. If it does not have a positive obligation to get those job numbers, and it knows they exist and it is in fact entitled to them, why on earth is this government not getting those job numbers? As my colleague just said, apparently the government is getting job numbers.
It is our right and our duty as parliamentarians to hold this government to account, and in terms of announcements and claims being made, we need to know on what basis those claims are being made. To date we have no answer, and every time there is an attempt to block this information, more and more flags go up.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Committee members, we all know our responsibilities. Whenever money is spent and the government decides it wishes to create jobs, etc., we wish to know. That's our job as members of this committee.
Madam Hall Findlay has made changes, which I will read, and then I'll ask you to reflect on it. Basically all we are asking is that if you have the information, provide it to us. We're not making any other request. We're not putting out any onerous request. We're not asking them to create numbers for us.
If we could calm down and listen to it very carefully—there's legalese in here, but we can try to simplify it.
Yes, Mr. Mayes.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
The request is unrealistic. If there isn't an obligation for the province to report to the federal government and all of a sudden we're asking for something when they haven't had an opportunity to gather that information, it's unrealistic to have it by December 8, as the motion says. It's absolutely not realistic.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Madam Coady just said that they received that information in the industry committee.
It's getting very confusing. Somebody has information and somebody has to pass this information...or collate the information if it's part of a collection.
I will read the changes. It reads:
That Infrastructure Canada, or such other department of the Government of Canada as may be appropriate, be ordered to provide the Committee (i) by December 8, 2009, a copy of all of the quarterly Expenditure and Job Creation Reports that such department has received by the date thereof, and (ii) by the third calendar day after the date upon which each of the forthcoming quarterly Expenditure and Job Creation Reports is received by the government of Canada, a copy of each of these Reports; all of the above, respecting the jurisdictions of the provinces and territories.
The simple thing is that we're looking for job information that they have received.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
Madam Chair, I don't see this as government trying to hide information.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
It was received.
With respect, we actually address the problem. If you don't--
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
If the government is not entitled to it and it hasn't received it, you don't provide it.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
The point I am the most challenged by is the reference to this Monday. Most parliamentarians won't be here tomorrow. We're talking about Monday to have this information in hand.
Patrick Brown is not here; he had to slip away. He said he would be much more comfortable with this without the assignation of a date. I think you're putting an unrealistic date on there.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
It only refers to information that has already been received. It's a photocopy.