Government Operations Committee on Feb. 24th, 2009

[Maria Barrados]

It is considered good practice. Most of the heads of organizations do it. I do it in my own organization. In this study, we made a point of talking to people too, just to make sure that the interpretation we put into presenting these numbers was consistent with what they saw. My comments about the impact of the retirements and the demographics in these different groups are all reflective of what managers are seeing in their departments.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Is there anything in particular that stands out for those who leave? Is it a pay issue? Is it...? What issue in particular, if anything, stands out to you as to why people might be leaving?

[Maria Barrados]

There are very few of what we would call separations.... The voluntary departures number in 2007-08 was 2,340 people. That's a pretty small number, and if you look at it, there were concentrations in the ES and the IS group. These are fairly young: they got into public service and decided public service wasn't for them and they left. These are really small numbers.

The big movement we're seeing is inside the system: people going from one department to another. They may not like their boss; they may not be interested in the work. Most often they feel they have greater potential for development in another place, or promotion.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Is there a direct correlation between the movement and those areas where unsatisfactory practices have been discovered?

[Maria Barrados]

I can't say that. The unsatisfactory staffing was in the EX category in the first year of the new act, and we cut departments a bit of slack, it being the first year.

It's a good suggestion; we should be able to cross-link those, but we didn't.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

May I have just one last question, or am I...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Members are now getting into the habit of nickel-and-diming the chair, and I don't want to get into the habit of acceding to every request.

I'll see whether I can be strict with the five minutes. We'll hear Ms. Hall Findlay, followed by Mr. Warkentin, who may wish to share his time with Mr. Calandra so that we can complete that line of questioning.

Ms. Hall Findlay.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you. I don't know that I even need five minutes; it's a quick clarification for me.

When you talk about the high rate of movement, it is interdepartmental, is it?

[Maria Barrados]

We include everything. We've included intake, interdepartmental, and separations, but the largest by far is the interdepartmental.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

How much of that involves geographic movement?

[Maria Barrados]

It's not that much.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

When there is a movement as high as some of these percentages, which do seem very high, is there a significant cost to retraining, or not? When somebody moves departments—I guess I'm asking a larger question—is it a bit of a drain on the system, and if so, is it the kind of thing that's encouraged, or discouraged? Is there a review of this, and of how the movement affects the efficiency, and of the cost to the system as a whole?

[Maria Barrados]

My conclusion is that this is not very well managed.

Is it encouraged or discouraged? I think many managers have just put their hands up and are letting it happen, which I think is not correct. In one sense, these are public servants who have had the training on what the public service is about. You continue with that gain: they know what public service is about and they're moving.

If somebody has been in a job for three or four years, it's probably a good thing for them to move. The ones I worry about are those moving after a year or a year and a half. There's just too much of that. In some cases, movement is a positive thing, for the person and the career. When you have a lot of movement—particularly PEs and ESs are the worst ones—you have a lack of continuity. You have to reinvest in knowledge transfer.

Our systems in government, in terms of data and data holdings and knowledge management, are not as good as they should be. There really is a problem with continuity. It's a more difficult environment to manage in, and a lot of it is not necessary.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you. That was a clarification for me personally, so thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

That's great. Mr. Calandra, Ms. Hall Findlay is going to yield two and a half minutes to you.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

This is just one very quick question. It's with respect to those who have retired.

Do we track people who have retired, if they are then at any point being brought back on contract?

[Maria Barrados]

That's a good question for the Auditor General. There are people who have retired and are coming back into the public service, either being contracted with a company—so the company would be doing work....

There's also a way to bring people back as casual employees. In the legislation, there is a provision that you can hire, with no process around it—it's total exemption from the Public Service Employment Act—somebody for 90 days in one place, and then they can go 90 days in another place. You do see retired public servants coming in that way. I can't really give you any numbers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you.

We go to Mr. Warkentin for a full five-minute round and then to Madame Bourgeois for another five.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. There seems to be a high rate of mobility in the executive group. I'm suspecting that a large number of these people are leaving to move either to a career outside the public service or else into retirement. Have you done a study or an assessment as to what exists currently in the executive group, in terms of their age, their intended retirement dates, or their intention of moving to other job opportunities?

[Maria Barrados]

We have the demographics on the executive group. The issue is when they can retire, when their pension allows them to retire—the magic “85”. By and large, they are now retiring at 58, so they tend to stay a year or two years after they're eligible to take their pensions without a penalty. The current economic environment may change that for some people.

But it's strictly demographics. We look at the demographics and we're estimating roughly when they would retire, and they seem to be retiring in that pattern.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

What is the average age? Maybe we should ask what percentage lies within the five-year window of that magic age.

[Maria Barrados]

It's pretty high. We have a chart in our mobility study, on page 45. When we look at the group who are 50 to 54.... You have roughly 30%; you have the group that's 50 to 55; and you have about 20%....

Many of them are ready to retire around 55; they have the combination. At the latest, it's 60. So you have a very high proportion of people who would be in that window of being able to retire, under the current pension regime.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

In the representativeness portion of your report, you specifically mentioned that maybe the committee should look at the struggle with self-identification and then also at the measurement of people who come from minority groups.

I can imagine, just from anecdotal situations, that this would be an issue of some sensitivity, specifically surrounding the issue of self-identification. I guess it's a positive thing that you're reporting that we may have a larger number, in terms of those from minority groups represented within the public service, than we had earlier thought. I know we spoke about this a year ago.

What specifically are you identifying as challenges involving the measurement? Then, is the measurement entirely dependent on the method of self-identification?

[Maria Barrados]

I'm always embarrassed when I have to go before a parliamentary committee and say that I'm not so sure that what I was telling you last year is really right, which is what the case is here. I'll try to give you a not-too-technical explanation.

The way we get the number of how many visible minorities we have in the public service and how many we have hired is by asking public servants to fill in a self-declaration form. This is a form that in some departments is automated and in some departments is not automated. Some people are fairly systematic about it and some are not. So there are some real questions about the integrity of this data and how people fill in this form.

We have been using that number. It is collected by the employer, we take all these forms that are filled in, we match the form with all the appointments, and we say you hired so many visible minorities.

I went before Parliament last year saying I'm really worried at the rate of hiring, because the rate of hiring is dropping off, and we're not going to have a representative public service.

In the meantime, we are getting better in our information systems, we're beginning to automate more, and we have an application system. All people who apply to an advertised job in the Government of Canada have to come through the jobs website and apply with the Public Service Commission. They are asked whether they are a member of a visible minority group—so this is self-identification. They are led through the application form—and you have to deal with this section of the application form; otherwise your application doesn't go in.

We took those numbers and matched them up with the applications and asked, what does it look like? We're doing a lot better, by that method, than we are by the other method.

Now, I have some problems. I have a whole system that's set up working one way; I have another estimate; there are requirements under the Employment Equity Act. I have the Human Rights Commission working one way; I'm only working with advertised processes—I'm not covering the unadvertised, which I talked about earlier.

I still estimate that we're doing a lot better than we've been saying. I would love to be able to give you a number.