Evidence of meeting #6 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:30 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
The second.
The second study was conducted in 2005 and the other one in 2008. However, the first one was not a survey: it was a statement of principles.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
The fact remains that these documents contain potential solutions. Despite the work done by the Office of Small and Medium Enterprises, the companies you represent are finding it extremely difficult to get government contracts. It is that correct?
11:30 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Yes, I would say that's correct. I'm not so sure it's because of the work of OSME but it's more to do with some of the policies that have been building within the Department of Public Works in terms of taking small contracts and building them into larger contracts, making them more inaccessible to smaller companies. I agree with CABiNET that it's something that's not only happening in the technology sector, that has happened in other sectors of the economy as well. Fewer companies are able to bid because the contracts become so large.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
The mandate of the Office of Small and Medium Enterprises includes five responsibilities. I will highlight two of them, which are extremely important: first, to explain to people how to deal with the Government of Canada, that is, to help open doors for them; second, to get them through the door of the Government of Canada.
In your opinion, does the Office of Small and Medium Enterprises do these things well?
February 26th, 2009 / 11:30 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Honestly, I have to say that in a survey we did in 2008, I don't think one comment talked about the OSME. I don't think there was one comment in that entire survey that mentioned the OSME—
11:30 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
—so I would say no, they're probably not doing that aspect of it very well.
11:30 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
I think that, one, they don't know about it. It's only in the large centres. Again, it exists in six large centres and not in any other part of the country, so when you talk about smaller communities or rural businesses, it's not something they would ever think about. Certainly we try to refer members to them if they have specific questions that it may be able to help them with, but I think you're absolutely right, I don't think it's very well known at all.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
What is the level of frustration as far as you have heard with the Office of Small and Medium Enterprises? You mentioned this earlier on.
11:30 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
The frustrations are with the procurement process overall, not so much specifically with OSME. The fact is, they cannot find contracts. When they do find the contracts, MERX can be very difficult to navigate and very expensive to use. When they do find the contracts, the paperwork is huge. As I mentioned, we had one member telling us it can cost between $3,000 and $6,000 just to put together a bid, which is very expensive for a small or medium-sized company to do. They can't get their questions answered because they can't talk to the purchaser. They don't necessarily have the ins that a larger company may have.
When they do get the contract, they may not get paid very quickly and it can take a long time for them to get paid, and they have to follow up very quickly. If they don't get the contract, they often don't know why. There isn't necessarily an explanation as to why, so they can't necessarily improve the next time. If they're part of a standing order or part of PS Online or part of a supply list that the government has, many of them never hear from the government, so they feel it's just frustration.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
If the Office of Small and Medium Enterprises did not exist, it would not make much difference would it? I am putting you on the spot.
11:35 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
No, it probably wouldn't make a huge difference.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
That was about four minutes. I know that Public Works is anxious to get equal time here. Forgive us while we go through this contorted scheduling.
Mr. Anders, we'll go to you for your share of eight minutes--whatever you wish--if it's targeted at the CFIB.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Anders Conservative Calgary West, AB
Mr. Chair, I think we can skin two cats in one go here. I would love to give the CFIB an opportunity to ask questions through me to Public Works. My colleague across the way thought that would be an interesting way to go.
Ms. Pohlmann, if you could pose direct questions to Public Works, are there things that you would like to ask? If so, please ask them to me.
11:35 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
One of our questions and something we have been pushing for a long time has to do with the idea of data accumulation and understanding what kind of information is being used to make the policy decisions they are making.
When it comes to small business, it's not well understood. There were some interesting statistics used in the presentation earlier. That was the first time I'd heard such numbers used. I don't know what they're based on.
How do they define an SME? How are they able to differentiate an SME from a bigger business that may just have a certain number that defines it as an SME because the value of the bid is smaller?
Those are some of the questions. We believe that providing that data and properly measuring what they're doing when it comes to the small-business side of the equation have really been lacking at Public Works.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Anders Conservative Calgary West, AB
That's a great question. If you could direct it, who would you direct it to?
11:35 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
I'd direct it to whoever could answer the question most completely.
11:35 a.m.
Shereen Miller Director General, Small and Medium Enterprises Sector, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
First of all, thank you for inviting us today, and thank you for the opportunity to answer this question and introduce some of the facts around the work of OSME.
I think there is some lack of understanding of the role of OSME. Just to put this to rest, we do not engage in assisting SMEs in Canada to do business with other governments. Our focus is on the federal government. I want to really clarify that.
Our role is to assist small and medium enterprises as they are defined by Industry Canada: medium-sized enterprises have under 500 employees, and small enterprises have under 100 employees. That definition is government-wide, and we are focused on both small and medium enterprises.
The role of OSME since its inception has been to accomplish three major things. The first thing is outreach.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
11:35 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
No.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
11:35 a.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
I was simply trying to understand what sort of data are being used. You talked about 48% of the value of the business coming from SMEs. I'm trying to understand where that 48% is coming from. How do they define that 48% as coming from SMEs? Do they actually ask the businesses how many employees they have when they are accumulating the contracts?