Evidence of meeting #8 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I appreciate the warm welcome you give me, Mr. Martin.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Yes, well, to the socialist paradise of Manitoba, you're always welcome.
Let me tell you, though, Mr. Minister, that there's some fear that even though you're speaking about flexibility and fast-tracking, there are still silos of money that the infrastructure spending finds itself in, and it's leading to roadblocks, to rigidity, to red tape still. I'd ask you to extend this spirit of flexibility to accommodate some of these concerns. Perhaps giving you a specific would help you understand what I mean.
I represent a very low-income riding. Right in the heart of that riding is the University of Winnipeg. The University of Winnipeg is building a big recreation centre that will in fact have a skating rink, etc. If we wanted to avail ourselves of the arena funding--the skating rink funding that you spoke about as one of your spending priorities--we may run into a barrier. Namely, because it's part of a university, even though it's servicing the whole community, in fact the low-income community, you might send us somewhere else that doesn't have the same fast-tracking capability.
Can you give any assurance that you're willing to be even more flexible than the current plan seems to dictate in order to accommodate this kind of need? We have shovel-ready projects, in fact hammer-ready projects, that could start tomorrow with the kind of flexibility that's preferred by your office.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
That's why I appreciate your introducing me to the president of that university earlier today. You both outlined the project. That's probably a project that would be more suitable to the $2 billion fund for colleges and universities. But we're trying to look at what we're doing on the cutting of red tape and fast-tracking--the work that our officials have done at Transport, Infrastructure and Communities--and at what we can do to roll that over to the college and university funding as well, to make it just as expeditious.
Obviously, we're going to have to keep a close eye on this so that the red tape is cut and the decisions are made. What happens, though, is that the best commitment--from, in that case, the federal and provincial governments--to work cooperatively together to make decisions is absolutely central.
I think Premier Dewar had an excellent relationship with the previous Liberal government, and he has an excellent relationship with our government. I think that will make all the difference in making things happen for people in Manitoba.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
But I think right across the country, Minister, you would admit that there are some projects that are the real low-hanging fruit. Some have actually started. Given the economic climate, major corporate donors have backed out and stalled projects.
I mean, what if you had a project where the hole was in the ground, the province had already funded half of it, a couple of corporate donors backed out, and for a couple of million dollars we could trigger a $60 million project? I think all the rules should go out the window in a case like that. And that's a concrete example: a $60 million project, $30 million worth of provincial funding, and, for the loss of a couple of sponsors, stalled.
Isn't that a perfect role for the federal government to step into?
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
We have some fundamental principles that particularly the new funding is built on.
One, we much prefer to have partners, because we can go a lot farther faster. In the case of the example you raised, it's at a much better ratio than one-third, one-third, one-third.
The second issue is that we want it to be incremental. We don't simply want a municipality or province to take any new money and just withdraw money out so there's not a single new job created.
Would we be prepared to look at something that was stalled and that would otherwise not be able to proceed? We can certainly look at that. What I don't want to do, if city X has already committed to spending $1 million on fixing up a bridge or road, is simply give them a third of that money and then have them take a third of theirs out and put it in their bank. Then we're not creating any new jobs, and we're not providing any additional stimulus, which we're committed to do.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
No, I understand; that wouldn't be what we were looking for.
I guess what we're looking at out there in the field, waiting for this money to roll, is that we don't really know what the rules are yet. It seems every time we ask for specifics, the rules are almost as flexible as the flexibility that you promised in the program delivery.
I'm not sure people are sure whom to approach, or what silo of money they are even asking for. Where do we go for the hard facts about applying for this money to get it into the communities quickly?
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
We will be coming forward in short order with the specifics on that. I think we'll take an asymmetrical approach on a province-by-province basis.
Obviously, for a province like P.E.I., their pool of money is demonstrably smaller than a province like Ontario. If we can sit down with the province, identify a group of projects that can move right away, and get going in a matter of a few weeks, obviously that's better than putting out a call for proposals and waiting six months for them to be evaluated before you move.
With a province like Manitoba, where we have a pretty decent working relationship with the provincial government, I suspect we'll probably sit down, survey the landscape, and then make a collective decision on how to proceed.
In Ontario, for example, it's a significantly higher amount of money, so I would expect that there would probably be some public calls for expressions of interest. We'll be speaking to that in the very near future.
Also, every day after question period I head back to my office with a list of five or six suggestions from Conservative, Liberal, Bloc, and NDP members of Parliament, which is great. That's the job of members of Parliament. I've had a good number of suggestions and I take them right back. We even act on them sometimes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
Thank you.
For the record, I think the minister was referring to the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, who's joined us as an observer here today. He is a former minister and former member of Parliament. I just want the record to show that.
Liberal
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Minister, for your time today.
My colleague asked earlier about the list. I'm afraid I'm still not clear. You mentioned three large buckets within the budget, but for this extra $3 billion...? I'll just note that I'm a little confused because earlier you mentioned $4 billion, so I'm now a little unclear about the actual amount. But using $3 billion for the discussion now, you mentioned three large buckets that are already discussed in the budget, but now we're dealing with $3 billion that has no specificity to it. Do you have a list of projects for this $3 billion? Yes or no?
Conservative
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
No. I'm sorry, Minister, for interrupting, but my question was very specific. I'm not necessarily asking you to give me that right now, because you indicated a concern about some of the projects, but do you have a list of projects for this $3 billion?
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
We have a good number projects where support has been requested. What we have to do--
Liberal
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
But you're asking to have this money spent right away, so I'm assuming that to be able to spend the money right away, there has to be some work already done to determine where that money is going to be spent. So do you have a list?
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Yes. I have an $18 billion request from Metrolinx in the greater Toronto area. I have--
Liberal
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
That's not all entirely within my department. I identified three new programs that are coming forward. If those proponents are able to move expeditiously and get shovels in the ground, and they need reimbursement and money up front to make those things happen, I don't want them to have to wait.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I am not going to make a unilateral announcement with respect to those projects because we work in cooperation with the provinces. For example, in Quebec, I'm not going to simply say to Quebec, without consulting with the Quebec government, “Here are the projects we're going to fund”. That will be done cooperatively with the province and with municipalities and other proponents.