Evidence of meeting #9 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wayne Wouters  Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Alister Smith  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you.

We asked the minister earlier today and then we asked John Baird, the minister for infrastructure, over and over again for a list of what the projects are. I know my colleagues with the Liberals expressed a disbelief that if you're going to roll this money out 21 days from now, surely you know what the list is. But now we learned on CBC Newsworld just a couple of minutes ago that after question period today a website will be going up and a list of all the stimulus projects will be posted. Is this true? Do you know anything about this? What will be on this list that's going to be posted at 3:15 today?

12:35 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

I'm aware they were looking at setting up a website. I wasn't aware the website is being set up today.

There are always projects that have been planned for and are ready for announcement. But of course with an additional $23 billion in stimulus there are many other areas of spending and many other projects that now we have to work very hard over the weeks and months ahead to identify and define and ensure they can move forward.

So I can't comment on what will be on this website, because I'm not aware of the current status.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

We've asked over and over again to show us such a list, and we were told no such list exists, we can't possibly do it. This is the parliamentary committee the minister answers to, and which you answer to. You don't answer to CBC. You don't answer to Rosemary Barton with Newsworld. Why should they know about this before we do when we've asked those specific questions of successive ministers and successive bureaucrats?

It chokes me to find out on my BlackBerry that such a list not only exists, it's going to be posted at 3:15 today. Somebody's in contempt of this committee if they've told us repeatedly no such information exists. We'll find out at 3:15, I guess.

The other thing I'd like more detailed information on is we've been told in a roundabout way that the Auditor General has been consulted on this vote 35, and we've been led to believe that she's fine with it. I don't dispute that the Auditor General was consulted, but what specifically did the Auditor General say? Did the Auditor General have any reservations or concerns about this vote? They have voiced concerns about five votes since 1968.

12:35 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

Again, my understanding is that the Auditor General has said she's been made aware of vote 35. At this time, I don't think she has declared her views about it.

In fact, I think she appeared before the public accounts committee, where she said at the time that she wasn't aware of the details around vote 35 except that the government was setting it up. You would have to ask the Auditor General that specific question on exactly what her views are on vote 35.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Wouters, both the Prime Minister and the President of the Treasury Board in their answers in question period led the public to believe that the Auditor General is right on board with this program. If that's less than true, we need to know that, because the public has a lot of faith in the Office of the Auditor General. We shouldn't be bandying around her good housekeeping seal of approval if no such approval has been given.

12:40 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

I think what the minister said today was that he and the Minister of Finance consulted with the Auditor General on the economic stimulus package and the measures that we were going to take to speed up the process.

I was at that meeting. We went through, with the Auditor General, how we were speeding up the policy and Treasury Board process, what authorities we were looking at, because of course Treasury Board has certain authorities and departments have certain authorities and giving the departments a little more leeway on those authorities allows them to move somewhat more quickly, and, at the same time, the vote 35 and the $3 billion and what it was being used for.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

You were at that meeting, sir?

12:40 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

Yes, I was.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Did the Auditor General raise questions regarding the fast-tracking or the possible reduction of oversight, scrutiny, and due diligence associated with this proposal?

12:40 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

No. This was to make her aware of the various measures that we were taking. She listened. That was the purpose of the meeting.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Then it would be wrong to imply, directly or indirectly, that she has approved of this process and that she doesn't have the same reservations, although we should be clear, and the public should know, that the Auditor General's job is to review the spending after the fact to see if there was good value for the taxpayer.

It's really our job as the government operations and estimates committee to review the proposed spending and to make sure that the appropriate checks and balances are in place. If we keep coming back to that as a line of questioning, that's exactly what our job is.

I come from the province of Manitoba, where the estimates process goes on all through the night, where the ministers will stay for 12 hours at a time and be grilled line by line on their proposed spending, not spending after the fact. I've always found that ours was a little light in our process.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

That's time.

Mr. Wouters appears to agree with you on that, Mr. Martin.

Mr. Brown, for five minutes.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the fact that we've been able to delve into this today. I know that in my riding there is certainly a lot of concern that we get this funding out quickly. People don't want to see Ottawa dither-dather on this and wait and wait to get money out the doors to support projects that are needed to stimulate our economy. That's why I think there's a lot of support in this country for the economic stimulus plan.

I find it bewildering that on the one hand we hear the opposition saying to get the funds out the door more quickly while on the other hand they're providing criticism when we're doing just that. I thought it would be helpful to highlight some of the accountability mechanisms in this so that we don't put the opposition in this hypocritical role having to attack two different approaches.

First, maybe you could provide to the committee some assurances on the accountability measures that exist on how these funds will be dispensed and at what point there will be an opportunity, through estimates or other mechanisms, for review by Parliament and committees.

12:40 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

As a first step, every initiative outlined in the budget requires either policy approval through the cabinet system, or some of them, as the minister noted, could be extensions or top-ups to existing programming, which don't require additional policy approval and would come directly to the board. So on that first step, we've been working very hard with our colleagues in PCO to ensure that the process for policy approval is as swift as possible. That work has largely been done now. At the same time, though, every single item in the budget that has funding associated with it requires Treasury Board approval.

We are not changing our approach here vis-à-vis our own due diligence of the Treasury Board Secretariat, my staff, in assessing every one of those programs. We are looking at every one. Of course, as the minister noted, extensions or top-ups already have clear terms and conditions, so that's less of an issue. It's in a new programming area that we work very closely with our colleagues in the departments to ensure, as a new program comes forward, that the terms and conditions are clear, that the oversight is there, that departments have the appropriate management systems in place. That work is being done, and it means my people are working extraordinarily hard. They're not taking too many days off these days, because we want to apply that same rigour on the approval process and the advice we provide the board, as we always have. We feel we're able to do that, we're able to accomplish the task.

At the same time, though, you have to recognize that at the end of the day it is the departments that are responsible for the spending once the board approves, and they have to ensure that they have their own oversight mechanisms in place to manage spending on a day-to-day basis.

The minister noted that as deputy ministers we are now designated as accounting officers, which gives us a responsibility to ensure that those dollars are being spent prudently. I think it is fair to say that if you look over the last two to three years you'll see there's been a lot of work done through the Comptroller General of Canada to improve overall financial management controls. A lot of work has been done by the board in working with departments in improving the overall management regime.

So for me, yes, it is a significant change in the spending pattern of the Government of Canada, but I do feel, as a personal view, that with the work we're doing at the board, plus the department's overall capacity, we are in a good position to have this funding move forward as expeditiously as everybody wants it to be.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

At our last meeting, Minister John Baird was asked a question about being able to write a blank cheque. His response was, “I couldn't even if I wanted to. All the Treasury Board rules and guidelines would not allow that, even if I wanted to, which I don't.”

Can you expand upon what the minister meant by saying that Treasury Board rules and guidelines would not allow a blank cheque to be written? That's one of the myths that's being pushed out there in the media, that there's this blank cheque, which the minister suggests is not possible under the Treasury Board rules. How do those rules prohibit that?

12:45 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

Treasury Board is the management board for the Government of Canada. It sets out what we call polices, directives, and standards. That's the set of rules, if you will, with which departments must comply to spend, to procure, to contract, to purchase IT. Whatever it is, there are those various policies in place. Therefore departments have to comply with those, and they have to ensure they follow good financial management practices. Also, most departments are constrained in their authorities as to how much they can spend. If the project is over a certain size, then they have to come to the board to seek approval for that project. In seeking that approval from the board, the board will ensure that they do have appropriate oversight mechanisms in place to spend the money.

That's how our system works. There are checks and balances, both at the departmental level and at the board, when it comes to spending.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

Thank you.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Mr. McTeague, for five minutes.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Chair, I'll be splitting my time with Ms. Martha Hall Findlay.

Mr. Wouters, very quickly, if I could, sir, I'm impressed with what you said about this being a significant difference from the past. You've made accommodations. I'm wondering, to look a little further ahead, assuming we're not going to get an idea specifically of what programs are going to be funded under this $3 billion vote 35, if you would see that there might be precedent of any type in allowing or establishing a routine response by the Treasury Board Secretariat, you in particular, to report shortly after the funding allocations or decisions have been made to this committee or to Parliament. Is this possible? Is this something that would go hand in hand with the unusual times in which you have had to make enormous changes, for which the minister has rightly complimented you?

12:45 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

I think the government has declared how they will report on this, which is they're going to report quarterly, report through the estimates process, so we basically will follow the direction that's provided by the government in following up. I'm quite prepared, once that report has been issued, to come here before this committee and discuss any of the elements in which that $3 billion funding has been allocated to any of those programs.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Perhaps you could discuss with your other colleagues or anyone who would want a chance at this that there might be an opportunity to communicate these funding decisions in terms of the precedents. Would you see any difficulty with doing that, among the changes that you've undertaken within the department?

12:50 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

Could you repeat the question?

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

What problems would it present to you in the Treasury Board Secretariat to communicate funding decisions to Parliament or to this committee? Do you envisage any obstacles to doing that? And if not--

12:50 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

Again, it's the government that makes the decision on how they want to report to Parliament and to Canadians. I think the government has declared in terms of the vote 35 how they will do that, which is they will report through their quarterly reporting, and of course the first report then would be in June, because that is the second report that's required.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

That's existing.

Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt, but I want to give this to Ms. Hall Findlay.

We have that already. I'm just wondering if we might take the extra step. The government could consider the extra step of reporting after a funding decision has been made or allotted. It could be done on a weekly basis.