Government Operations Committee on June 17th, 2010

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you.

I want to just follow up on something you said to Mr. Davies, my colleague. You said that staff knew you had access to Madam Guergis' e-mail accounts, and that the PMO itself contacted you on that e-mail account. Can you tell me who from the Prime Minister's Office contacted you on that e-mail account, and what was it concerning?

[Rahim Jaffer]

To clarify, I didn't have access to her e-mail accounts. Those are all her own personal info. The only—

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

To the e-mail account that came from her office.

[Rahim Jaffer]

That's right. It was “Assistant 2, GuergH8”. That particular e-mail account was one that many people knew was assigned to me through her office after the election.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Who from the PMO contacted you and in what context?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You can ask that question later on.

Mr. Nadeau, you have five minutes.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Mr. Jaffer. If you could start over, do you think it would be a good idea to register as a lobbyist before putting in place a process to meet with people who are currently federal ministers?

[Rahim Jaffer]

As I mentioned, I did not do any lobbying according to the definition of the Lobbying Act. If I had, yes, I would have registered; I would have had no problem with it. Discussing issues, especially of a social nature, with some of my former colleagues I don't think constitutes lobbying, so no, I wouldn't have registered, as I haven't now.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Fine.

Having said that, when you called Mr. Paradis last August, as was reported in the Le Quotidien newspaper—it is now June 2010, so that is quite recent in human history—it was to discuss a project to install solar panels on federal government buildings. You did more than socialize. I understand that you are buddies, long-standing friends, and so on. However, you spoke to the minister about something directly connected to Green Power Generation Corporation. At the request of the minister, or at least as a result of a friendly agreement, you contacted him directly.

Do you see why we cannot believe everything you have told us? You say that you had contact with these people only because they were your colleagues when you worked in politics as a member of Parliament. You say that you discussed installing solar panels with Mr. Paradis. You addressed an area that affects the company in question, the one you represent. As for obtaining information, you are an intelligent man. You can find basic information on the government's Internet site. But you overstepped your bounds by asking for information from a minister who decides whether or not to approve projects.

It goes beyond friendship when you talk to a minister instead of simply reading about an issue like any other citizen would. You were dealing with a decision-maker. How can you say that you weren't lobbying a person in a position of authority?

[Rahim Jaffer]

If I understand your question correctly, you're addressing the issue of lobbying by the fact that I was talking to a minister.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

You were doing so on the subject in question.

[Rahim Jaffer]

Yes. First of all, I was never paid by GPG, being my own company, to do any lobbying.

Secondly, when it came to the minister, when we approached his assistant about how we go about.... This is a brand new area. There's no information available on how to pay the government to put solar panels on rooftops. We weren't asking for money; we wanted to pay the government to lease rooftop space.

The assistant we approached to point us in the right direction said, “You know what? Regardless, I'll look into it, but Minister Paradis would like to talk to you, just to see how you're doing.” So that's how the whole evolution of that telephone call happened, where I called him, we caught up, and he asked me how I was doing. We talked about families. I knew his family quite well because I was the chair of caucus.

After that point he asked me, “So what are you doing now?” I said, “This is the work we're trying to do at my company, GPG. We're looking to try to...with the federal government there may be opportunities to lease rooftop space, to pay the government so we can lease the space to build power projects. Your assistant said he'd try to get the information for me. I appreciate it. That's what I'm involved in. Thanks for asking.”

That was it.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

You discussed similar topics with Ms. Ambrose, who had become Minister of Public Works.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Nadeau, you may ask one final question.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

You spoke with nine public office holders, ministers or parliamentary secretaries, to discuss specific issues relating to your business, issues directly involving Green Power Generation Corporation. You did not just socialize with these people, you also had business discussions with them.

[Rahim Jaffer]

I have never spoken to Minister Ambrose at all.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

You made arrangements with her office to obtain information and to plan meetings with people from her office.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Nadeau, your time is up.

We'll now go to Mr. Calandra for five minutes.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I too congratulate you and your wife on the news of a child. I have two of my own, and it's certainly going to change your life--I suspect for the better.

I'll go in a bit of a different direction, if you'll bear with me. You must be aware that there are different passports available, such as diplomatic passports; special passports for government office holders, members of Parliament, senators, members of provincial cabinet, persons employed by the Government of Canada in a non-diplomatic capacity, and spouses of cabinet ministers travelling on government business.

I assume you're aware of such passports.

[Rahim Jaffer]

Yes.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Are you aware of the rules surrounding the use of these special passports?

[Rahim Jaffer]

Yes. I appreciate your asking, Mr. Calandra. This was quite a point of debate with one of Helena's staff after the election--for me. One of the things you know as an MP...as I was an MP, I was issued a special passport. To my knowledge, I know that other colleagues at the time would use that special passport not only for government business but for personal travel. I don't think many MPs carry two passports. I was always told you couldn't carry two passports, so I only travelled on the special passport.

After—

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Let me just ask you, then, because it seems you're aware of the rules. Did you use the special passport to travel to Cuba on private business?

[Rahim Jaffer]

What I did was I asked this former chief of staff to my wife.... I didn't feel comfortable taking a diplomatic passport because I knew I would have personal travel. Who wouldn't on a passport that you're issued? So I told her that I was going to try to go through the process to get a normal passport because I didn't want to have any confusion. She insisted to me at the time—and I challenged her on this, and we talked about it a couple of times—she said, “No, you are going to be issued this passport, the same passport, a diplomatic passport, as your wife because you're a spouse.” She informed me that you could travel on it for your own personal use. This is what she told me. I was suspect, except that when I was an MP, I only had one passport and I only travelled on one passport. So even though I challenged her with it, she said, “No, you're only going to be able to use this passport.” In fact, she arranged for my own personal travel...at one point, she arranged a visa.

So you trust your advisers in the role they have. They're the ones to check these things, and in her case it was the chief of staff. When she gave me this advice, I trusted it. I didn't feel comfortable with it, but I trusted it.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Then, clearly, obviously you did travel to Cuba.

Was there also an instance, perhaps in Panama, where we're led to believe there might have been a...?