Government Operations Committee on June 17th, 2010

[Rahim Jaffer]

There are other MPs in your caucus who are under investigation and who sit in caucus. She has not had a chance to clear herself and she has been removed from caucus, which makes no sense to me or the democratic process. That's what I'm most upset about. There's no respect for that, obviously, from your caucus.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

This is going to be the last question, unless anybody has any burning questions.

Ms. Mendes is next, and then Monsieur Nadeau.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to discuss a Dr. Hai Chen. Do you know him?

[Rahim Jaffer]

Yes.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

According to reporters, according to what was in the news, Dr. Chen sent an e-mail outlining his attempts to set up a Canadian industrial park in China. Ms. Guergis was given credit for that and she made the official announcement.

Is that the business in China you alluded to when you appeared before the committee last April?

[Rahim Jaffer]

No.

I did not know, and I think Dr. Chen clarified that e-mail in the press. I think he was just brainstorming an idea to Mr. Gillani. That's the nature of that particular e-mail exchange. I didn't know about any plans or thoughts that he may have had about including my wife in any sort of industrial park. I think he said that; I think he said that he never discussed it with us. It was just an idea that he had.

The nature of the work that I did when I went to China was to try to see new opportunities for one particular technology that I was working with. I wanted to see if the Chinese government, through our contact of Dr. Chen, would be interested in developing this green technology there. That was the extent of my work when I went to China. Nothing has developed as a result, but that was my focus. Any other discussion that Dr. Chen may have had with Mr. Gillani I wasn't privy to.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Do you know if Ms. Guergis had planned to travel to China in connection with that project?

[Rahim Jaffer]

No. To my knowledge, no.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I am going to state a principle. Mr. Jaffer, before being elected, I had to officially state my desire to run, and we know full well that neither my party nor Elections Canada would have allowed me to put my name on a ballot if everything had not been done according to the rules.

I think the same logic applies to lobbying. Even if you did not know whether you would be successful in your attempts to obtain information or access, it seems to me that it would have been logical, for both you and your friends in government, for you to be registered as a lobbyist. That's normal. You should have registered as a lobbyist before you took any steps, because you might have been asked questions about the nature of your relationship with your friends and your former colleagues.

Wouldn't you have found that normal and logical?

[Rahim Jaffer]

As I recollect, in our discussions about this whole issue of registration for the Lobbying Act, Patrick and I went through a thorough discussion of whether this was an appropriate action. Because we didn't know the nature of our business at the time and we were not--and I qualify, we were not--taking any contracts at all until we determined what sort of business we would do, there was no need, as we interpreted the law, to register.

Now, if we've done something wrong, we made it clear to the Commissioner of Lobbying that we will be held accountable. This is the way we interpreted the law, and we behaved accordingly, we thought. She's conducting a review of our actions as we were developing our business, and if we have done something wrong, I'm sure we will be held accountable.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

But it seems to me that it was your intent to do some lobbying, Mr. Jaffer.

I want to go back to your relationship with Mr. Gillani.

Mr. Glémaud testified that if the government showed interest in one of your proposals you would then approach the client to discuss next steps. That is lobbying, for all purposes and effects.

How would you have been compensated by your clients?

[Rahim Jaffer]

Again, you'd have to ask Mr. Glémaud, but the way I understood it was that in order for us to proceed, by putting any application in—because there wasn't even a guarantee that if we went through the process we would work with these companies—we were taking a risk in order to get some initial information, to do some research, to find out what was happening. And I understand that many lobbying firms in this city charge for that kind of work, but we didn't want to, because we didn't know what we were going to deliver--

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

But how were you going to be compensated by Mr. Gillani for the services you were providing?

[Rahim Jaffer]

As Mr. Gillani said--and my understanding of the contract he tabled and the way it was explained to me--for any future business, whether he was raising money in the private sector or we were raising money from the private sector or any other source, we would have to sit down and draft the terms of an agreement with the parties who would be receiving the money. So there was a wide range of opportunities for compensation, but we never made it to any of those second stages to discuss it. Our business relations ended with--

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I have to agree with Mr. Lauzon that it would have saved a lot of trouble for everybody if you had started by registering.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Merci, Madam.

[Rahim Jaffer]

I appreciate that.

I would just say, Madam Chair, that I'm willing to abide by the expert in this particular area, the Commissioner of Lobbying, and I will follow whatever she determines once she's done her review.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Mr. Nadeau, you wanted two minutes, and then we'll end with two minutes from Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Jaffer, here is some food for thought. You probably had some friends before coming here, but you probably have fewer today given what you have said about the Conservative Party.

Documents show that you were in contact with various departments. We have heard that Mr. Christian Paradis, former Minister of Public Works and Government Services, admitted earlier this week that Mr. Jaffer had called him in August to discuss a project to install solar panels on government buildings. That is fine, he is a friend, and so on, but he is also a minister. Ms. Rona Ambrose, the current Minister of Public Works and Government Services, wrote that following a request from Rahim Jaffer in August 2009, a meeting had been organized by the department to discuss a proposal. The meeting was finally held with Mr. Glémaud in October.

And then there was Ms. Lynne Yelich, Minister of State for Western Economic Diversification, and Ms. Diane Ablonczy, Minister of State for Seniors, two of Rahim Jaffer's former colleagues. An article in La Presse states: “These documents show that there was contact on several occasions with members of ministers' offices or departmental officials or federal organizations which had to that point been spared in this controversy, including the Office of the Minister of Public Works, the Minister of State for Seniors, and the Western Economic Diversification Agency of Canada.”

So the issue is one of direct contact with former colleagues. I am not sure that you could get that today, because of what you have said.

As for Mr. Jim Prentice, Minister of the Environment, he had to admit to the House of Commons that his employees had met Rahim Jaffer a year ago. Mr. John Baird, Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, admitted the same thing after the Minister of the Environment. Earlier this week, John Baird had to concede that his department had considered three projects put forth by Rahim Jaffer's company.

Mr. Jaffer acknowledged approaching Mr. Brian Jean, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, on three projects. As for Mr. Tony Clement, Minister of Industry, he confirmed that the former Conservative member of Parliament had also sent an e-mail to a member of his staff. And then there was Mr. Gary Goodyear, Minister of State for Science and Technology and Minister of State responsible for the Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario.

This information comes from press clippings or TV.

Reports say that federal ministers of the Environment and Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, respectively Jim Prentice and John Baird, as well as the Minister of State for Science and Technology, Gary Goodyear, also submitted documents to the committee and to the Commissioner of Lobbying. The documents deal with correspondence from Mr. Jaffer and his business partner, Mr. Glémaud.

All of these situations paint a picture of people who were lobbying others they knew well. Based on our understanding of this approach, one can say that the Conservative Party opened its doors to a former colleague, to one of its own, by greatly facilitating access as regards potential projects with Green Power Corporation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Nadeau, conclude your remarks please.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

That is all, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Rahim, I'm wondering, and it hasn't been brought up much, are you aware of the Criminal Code sanctions against influence peddling? Let me help you.

[Rahim Jaffer]

Sure, please.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The Criminal Code prohibits influence peddling not only by government officials, but also by anyone who has or pretends to have influence with the government or with a minister.

It goes on to say:

The application of this provision is limited to those who have, or pretend to have, a significant enough connection to government so that they can affect a government decision, such as the awarding of a contract. Anyone convicted of influence peddling is liable to imprisonment for up to five years.