Government Operations Committee on Oct. 7th, 2010

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I don't know what you'll be studying next or what you're working on, but I hope you'll have some time to look at that as well in the future, because it is a grave concern for people. You can only imagine what frustration it causes, particularly when someone's previous card has run out and they haven't got a PR card and can't travel, etc. That's a very big concern.

What do you see as the measures that the government or departments ought to implement to increase the number of people with disabilities working in those departments? You've indicated that in other areas there has been good success in minority or targeted groups being hired, but not with people with disabilities.

I was on the human resources committee at one time, and we did a study of employability in Canada. One of the things we found over and over was that in Canada people are being left by the wayside and that we're missing out as a society from the skills and knowledge of people with disabilities, for example, when often what is required is very little adjustment or arrangement in a workplace, but employers don't realize that.

What do you see as a solution within the civil service?

[Maria Barrados]

I'm not sure that I have a magic bullet here, but we certainly can look at the experience of what we have done for visible minorities. On the visible minorities side, I have been coming before Parliament for the whole period of my term raising concerns, and the result of that is that there has been a real mobilization in the public service. We've seen it in the past for women; we've seen it in the past for francophones.

So this, first and foremost, has to get more attention. As part of getting more attention, the message has to go out to the disabled that it is a welcoming workplace. We want to them to apply more. They're not applying in the numbers that they should. That doesn't mean that everybody who applies gets a job, but you want numbers so that you can get people and match their skills.

So that's the first thing that has to happen. We have to have more saying that this is a welcoming place to come.

The second thing we have to do, and this is something that the commission is charged with, is provide more support to departments in doing assessments and making accommodations for the disabled, because many of the disabilities are not seen. Sometimes people don't want to declare them. But if you have some kind of reading problem, for example, you're going to have trouble doing the reading language tests. We have to provide more support in accommodating people in their assessments and, again, let that be known.

On my part, I commit to continue to monitor those numbers, talking it up. And we've had success in the visible minority area, so—maybe I'm overly optimistic—I think we can move this one as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

We're going to go to Madame Faille, for five minutes.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am a member of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, and I work with the reports of the Auditor General, Ms. Fraser. In her report, she indicated that the use of temporary help services was a way to bypass staffing rules in the public service; so she is of the same mind. But I am convinced that there are other ways to bypass the staffing process.

You are aware that since the Federal Accountability Act came into force, various programs in various departments have been the subject of internal reviews. That was the case with the exchanges Canada program, among others. I would just like to draw attention to the findings and conclusions. It was found that managers' roles were not well defined and that skill descriptions were completely lacking, as was any consistency in terms of the required experience and the eligibility criteria. Also mentioned were failures to meet language requirements, real risks of conflict-of-interest situations, ties between incumbents and grant recipients, ties with those the department relied on to deliver contracts, failure to respect assignment policies, and so on.

I agree with my colleagues, Ms. Bourgeois and some others who have asked questions. There seems to be a ploy by the government to favour the use of these agencies and other methods to bypass the staffing system. I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Furthermore, what concerns us, at the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, is that deputy ministers and departments are required by law to submit certain reports to us. And it was reported in the papers that Public Works and Government Services Canada did not report on deadlines, figures or analyses related to the use of temporary help contracts. There seems to be some poor management within that department or a deliberate intention not to disclose information on the use of temporary help services.

How much money is spent on management advisory services, on financial management services, on information technology services? All of those questions are still unanswered.

Do you know whether these agencies have ongoing relationships with the government, with Public Works and Government Services Canada, or other departments and agencies? Do they have their own lobbyists? What reasons do people give you for using these temporary help agencies?

I know that I have asked a number of questions. If you do not have time to answer them all, could you please provide a written response to the committee?

[Maria Barrados]

Thank you. I can take a few minutes to answer some of them, and we can provide a written response to the others later.

I do not think there is really a strategy aimed at getting around the act. To my mind, it has more to do with a lack of management. I want to see better management because, in my view, public servants, managers, are not trying to get around the act. Rather it is the result of a lack of management and a lack of attention.

I have another view. My relationship with the deputy ministers is different because I am the one, the president of the Public Service Commission, who delegates responsibilities to the deputy ministers, who must then report back to me. The relationship of accountability is between myself and the deputy minister, which is different from the relationship between the deputy minister and the minister and the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

I am not surprised that you had trouble obtaining answers to detailed questions, because we had an extremely hard time coming up with these figures. We do not really have a people management system, but rather a contract management system. There is a lot of information on the contracts, but not on the individuals working under those contracts.

We can try to answer your questions using the information we have, but they will be estimates. We will have to estimate all of these figures based on samples and the work of auditors.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I'm going to cut in here. We have just exceeded five minutes, so we'll move on to Mr. Gourde from the Conservatives, for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Many thanks to you and your team for being here, Ms. Barrados. Could you describe the challenges facing human resources managers in various departments, given the lack of staff.

If they are using temporary help services, there must be a genuine need for them. Is it that a lot of people are retiring? Is it that people are off on sick leave, maternity leave and so forth? Is it that people are going back to school? Has there been an increase there? If the needs are greater as a result, it must be that departments have work that has to be done within very specific deadlines. If a department ends up with 25% or 30% less staff in a month, that must translate into major challenges for managers.

[Maria Barrados]

People in human resources no doubt have some challenges facing them in the Government of Canada. We have observed a lack of support, tools, systems and guidelines for human resources managers. We have a system with many staffing activities and processes—a large number—and those people are very busy.

We have also seen a lot of turnover within human resources groups themselves. There are certainly some challenges ahead, but what is more important in my eyes is getting the necessary support and training.

People in human resources also need to use the systems in place more, because we have processes at the PSC, inventories and staffing systems that are not always used. I have to say that we have some challenges ahead.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

You said earlier that retired employees could return to work for the government through agencies, and those people are very valuable because they have expertise and can train new public servants on various duties.

But these people do not necessarily want to work full time. That may be a way for them to come back and contribute to the government. Is that part of the problem and, at the same time, the solution?

[Maria Barrados]

In my view, retired employees have a lot of knowledge and a lot to contribute. I do not think they need to go through a temporary help agency. We have a staffing process for casual positions, people can receive a professional services contract, we have a staffing process for short-term positions, if it is a public servant with a pension from the federal government. People can obtain those kinds of jobs without it affecting their pension. I do not think it is necessary to go the temporary help services route, except if you are looking for someone to work long term while they are receiving a federal government pension. I do not think that is ideal, that is not the system for it.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

I have one last little question. What percentage of public service jobs is staffed by temporary help services? Is it 2%, 3%, 5% or 10%?

[Maria Barrados]

That is an interesting question. It is not a large number. But I have had trouble pinning down a number, because I have all the information on the contracts. I know the expenses involving the contracts.

If we were to estimate the number of people based on the expenses, we could say somewhere between 3,050 and 4,050 people. It is not all that many in proportion to the entire workforce, but if you consider it in proportion to others who are not permanent, it is a lot.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

We're now going to turn to Mr. Regan for five minutes.

I believe you'll be splitting your time.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, that's right.

Madam Barrados, in your experience.... When you do a report like this, I'm guessing that not all managers or departments are going to read it, so what kind of follow-up do you do? What are the next steps that follow the tabling of your report?

Also, do you have any recommendations for amendments to the Public Service Employment Act that flow out of what you've found?

[Maria Barrados]

In the process we use in doing our reports, we actually do discuss drafts of these reports as we are completing our work. There is a lot of discussion in the public service, and so each of these reports that touch anyone in the public service, they have looked at.

In the audit side, which we affectionately call “the big green book”, we make specific recommendations to departments and we monitor those and follow up. We also have formal delegation agreements and we monitor those. The numbers you see in the annual report are the result of that annual monitoring. So there is a lot of discussion going on, and we do follow up on all of those things. I don't think too many people take it for bedtime reading, except maybe my executive committee.

We are in the process of drafting and suggesting recommendations to changes to the legislation. There is a five-year review process that is required by the legislation. It is led by the President of the Treasury Board. We are making our suggestions to the team that is working on that draft legislation.

However, we will be doing our own report, so our intention is that as soon as the president of the board tables his report, we will table our report. It would be very nice if we were saying the same thing, but we are an independent organization, so we will draw our own conclusions. Parliament will have both of those when they are reviewing the legislation.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Ms. Coady.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you.

I have a couple of questions that I'd like to have answered. I'm looking at the highlights of your annual report. You talk about how “significant growth” in the public service population occurred, a lot of it due to the economic action plan. You talk about how organizations with “roles in delivering” the economic action plan announced in budget 2009 “accounted for half the total growth in the population between March 2009 and March 2010”.

Well, the economic action plan, as we know and as the Conservatives have said, is coming to completion in March of 2011. Now, are those temporary positions that were occurring or permanent positions, and what happens after March 2011?

I note specifically that there was a fair increase in communications staff for the PMO, the Prime Minister's Office, and the Privy Council Office. I just think it's unusual. Are these temporary or permanent positions? How does it go forward on that?

[Maria Barrados]

The Prime Minister's Office people are not public servants. The Privy Council Office people are public servants. The PMO is not under my domain, but PCO is.

Most of them are permanent hires, so this brings me back to my theme. As public service managers, there has to be a lot of attention paid to this, because most organizations will run with a permanent workforce of up to 80% and 85%. Then, for the other proportion, we'll use what is generally termed as a bit more contingent workforce, so they're people who are not permanent. That allows you to manage as times change and as circumstances and budgets change.

We actually have bumped up on that permanent workforce. So what that means for public service managers as they have to deal with the restraints, the strategic reviews, and the operational freezes, which are real and significant--this is significant money coming out of budgets--is that there will be a challenge in bringing down the workforce, because most of the expenditure for people is salaries.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I just find it interesting that the economic action plan is temporary and ends, as we know, in 2011, yet there's permanent support to the Privy Council Office, which supports the Prime Minister.

I have one final question on this round, because I know I'm running out of time. I noted in your report on audit reports that there was an audit of Fisheries and Oceans Canada. I note with concern that one of your paragraphs talks about a concern that “DFO's external appointments and appointment processes are not always compliant”, and that “merit was not met in some of the external advertised appointment processes and external non-advertised appointment processes audited”. You also found, in some of the external appointment processes audited, indicators of “preferential treatment”.

Would you please elaborate on what you were speaking of there and how large this concern is?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We've run out of time, but I'd like you to have an opportunity to answer the question, so please do that.

[Maria Barrados]

Okay, I'll do that quickly.

In all the departments that we look at, we raise a number of issues. I have to say that Fisheries and Oceans had a lot of the systems in place and so a lot of the management systems we were looking for.

When we do the actual looking at the files, we look to see if the merit test was demonstrated and met. They had a number that didn't because of some of the errors they made. We also found in our sample that there was personal favouritism.

I'll ask Elizabeth to explain just briefly what our measures were, what we were looking for in personal favouritism, and what we found in the Pacific region in our audit.

[Elizabeth Murphy-Walsh, Vice-President, Audit, Evaluation and Studies, Public Service Commission of Canada]

Thank you for the question.

The types of things that we're looking for when we look for indicators of personal favouritism are things like individuals who perhaps had been in the position before as a casual employee, indicators of someone who had an opportunity to provide input into the job description or into the statement of merit, or something along the lines of the changes made to the language profile of the position itself at the time.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

Mr. Calandra, for five minutes.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Obviously it's been an extraordinary time. We've had the Olympics, the G-8/G-20, a visit from the Queen. We have the Pan-Am games coming. We've had Afghanistan and the extraordinary response by the government to the crisis in Haiti.

So I'm wondering, when you do a report like this, if you're able to quantify the increases in temporary work with that. Do you also adjust for inflation and salary increases when you're finalizing the dollar value increase?

[Maria Barrados]

We do look, obviously, at the circumstances that departments are facing. For example, if somebody has a big initiative--the economic action plan, for one--we do not go and audit in those departments. If there's a big event going on, we will put that off.

We did not audit External Affairs or go and look at their work while they were doing that. You have to be realistic. I mean, managers have to do their jobs.

We did look, obviously, at this business of how people were employed. My comment, as I was just saying to the other member, was that they were mostly permanent staff.

Now, managers will say that's the only way they can get good people, but it does mean that you do have a problem because you're counting on retirements to give you the employment space that you need to manage your workforce.

We look at positions. We look at people holding positions. We don't worry about the compensation because it's not our responsibility. That belongs to Treasury Board. One of the things that is happening with the operational budget freezes--and I can say that as a manager of my own organization--is that for any increase that is bargained, I have to find the money. In the past, I used to get that from the centre. So it has a real impact.