Evidence of meeting #31 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marianne Berube  Executive Director, Ontario Wood WORKS!, Canadian Wood Council
Andrew Casey  Vice-President, Public Affairs and International Trade, Forest Products Association of Canada
Isabelle Des Chênes  Vice President, Market Relations and Communications, Forest Products Association of Canada
Sylvain Labbé  Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Wood Export Bureau
Jean-David Beaulieu  Researcher, Bloc Québécois Research Bureau, Bloc Québécois
Rick Jeffery  President and Chief Executive Officer, Coast Forest Products Association
Michael Atkinson  President, Canadian Construction Association
Gary Sturgeon  Consultant and Structural Engineer, Canadian Concrete Masonry Producers Association
Gael Mourant  President and Chief Executive Officer, ARXX Building Products Inc.
Guy Chevrette  President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council
Ed Whalen  President, Canadian Institute of Steel Construction, Canadian Construction Association

10:15 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Coast Forest Products Association

Rick Jeffery

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for accommodating us out here on the west coast via video conference. It certainly helps reduce greenhouse gas emissions in that I didn't have to fly to Ottawa.

I'm Rick Jeffery, president and CEO of Coast Forest Products Association. We represent 24 companies on the coast of British Columbia, with over 12,000 employees.

I also wear two hats here, though. I am the chair of the Canada Wood group. We're responsible for ensuring market access and market promotion of Canadian wood products in global markets offshore. Our membership is located across Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, and B.C. We represent most of the companies there and over 200,000 employees.

I'd like to speak in favour of Bill C-429 for a number of reasons. First, it creates an opportunity to support the domestic forest industry and create jobs in communities across our country.

Second, the use of wood in construction can contribute to greenhouse gas reductions, carbon management, and climate change. As we say in the industry, “Tackle climate change: use wood”.

Third, it provides us with the opportunity to demonstrate the value of using wood in construction. Just a few of the attributes of wood are its energy efficiency, carbon storage, seismic performance, cost-effectiveness, strength, durability, and aesthetic beauty.

What I would say to you is that, in the demonstration context, this bill is very important for us. As Mr. Chevrette just indicated, Canada needs to walk the talk. I'd like to tell you a story about that. We are actively promoting the use of wood in construction in China. In order for us to be able to do that, we have to be able to demonstrate to the Chinese--who build, by the way, eight million to ten million housing units a year--that we indeed also use wood in our construction techniques.

The best story we have on that front is that over 50% of the housing units in China are six-floor walk-ups. When we told the Chinese that they should be building these buildings out of wood, they said, “Well, show us.” Lo and behold, we didn't have a six-floor building code here in Canada. So in British Columbia, we adopted a six-floor building code, much like Washington State and Oregon have, in order for us to be able to demonstrate to China that you can indeed use wood for these things. So we need to build with wood if we expect other people in our key markets to also build with wood. Canada must be a leader in this regard.

I'd like to talk about some of the allegations that are levelled against this thing, and do this from a B.C. context. As you may know, the B.C. government has instituted a “wood first” policy. Over a dozen of our municipalities have followed suit. We have no unintended consequences or market influences that are causing problems for other building material suppliers. Allegations that wood increases costs are quite unfounded. As we see the price of concrete and steel rise, as a matter of fact the converse is true: wood is becoming a much more cost-effective building material.

People say that wood is not safe. The use of wood is subject to national and international standards. That's some of the work we do with the Canada Wood group on building codes in Japan, China, Korea, and those kinds of places so wood can be used safely. Wood is a strong material.

It has not wiped out jobs in other building materials industries here in British Columbia. It has not created bankruptcies or distorted market prices. None of these things have happened. We have that experience here in B.C.

I'd like to also note that the proof is in the pudding on this stuff. I'd like to give you an example of what this kind of wood first policy can do.

We have two iconic buildings here that were showcased to the world during the 2010 Olympics, in which all Canadians showed great pride.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Jeffery, you have actually exceeded your five minutes. Could you wind up in 10 seconds or less, please?

10:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Coast Forest Products Association

Rick Jeffery

Sure.

Those two buildings show that modern building applications, innovations, and high-tech technology transfers can be used. And what are those buildings made of? Those buildings are made of wood, steel, and concrete. They're hybrid.

This isn't an “us versus them” discussion. This is about getting more wood into buildings.

Thank you.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Jeffery.

Colleagues, we are under the gun for time. We have 20 minutes left. There's also a procedural motion that we're supposed to deal with at the end. I'm going to arbitrarily, therefore, cut the round of questioning down to five minutes each.

Mr. Regan or Madam Coady, for five minutes.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, witnesses, for being with us today.

Mr. Atkinson, you're here on behalf of the construction industry, so let me ask you this. There is a concern, I think, across the country, particularly in small rural communities, lumber communities, that have been suffering because of the downturn, particularly in the U.S. housing construction market. They've also been affected by the downturn in pulp and paper. A lot of jobs have been lost, and there's a concern about that. There's also a concern about encouraging the export of wood products to places like China, as we just heard from Mr. Jeffery.

Do you see a way in which the Government of Canada can legitimately support the lumber industry as it goes through these difficult times? As well, what are your thoughts on the suggestions we've heard about the national building code?

10:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Construction Association

Michael Atkinson

First of all, it's a bit like déjà vu all over again, as Yogi Berra said. We were before the Senate committee on agriculture and forestry, which was looking at exactly the kinds of questions you are looking at--i.e., how to enhance the use of wood products in the non-residential construction industry. They were taking a very general comprehensive look at what needed to be done. They were looking at the building code and they were looking at the need for more R and I in the industry, etc.

I think those were positive steps. They were talking and consulting with the industry at large about how best to proceed, how best to help the forest industry along, without it being in a situation where they were setting them up against other building suppliers. So I think that's number one.

The Senate committee spent several months looking at this issue, and one of the things we said to them was, yes, look at those areas. There is already a process in place, a very clear process, on how to change the Canada building code. The Canadian building code itself to a great degree doesn't have any force and effect until adopted by other jurisdictions, but there is a process in place by which to make changes through that process, to have them critiqued by experts, by scientists, by researchers, etc.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

So would you agree, for example, with the suggestion we heard from Mr. Jeffery, I think, that rather than limit construction with wood to four floors, make a six-floor provision? Is that something you would agree with?

10:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Construction Association

Michael Atkinson

I would suggest that if you are looking at an amendment to the Canadian building code, use the process that's already in place to make those changes. Don't unilaterally make a change that inhibits or undermines the processes that are in place.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Okay. Thank you very much.

Mr. Sturgeon, you're here on behalf of the concrete industry, if I'm not mistaken. I'll ask you, and I'll also ask Ms. Mourant, about the suggestion we heard from the mover of the bill and from the forest industry that they're looking to be on an equal footing.

What would your view be of this bill if, rather than saying that the minister shall give preference to wood, etc., it says that the minister shall give “consideration”?

Does that change your view of this bill?

10:25 a.m.

Consultant and Structural Engineer, Canadian Concrete Masonry Producers Association

Gary Sturgeon

No, it doesn't change the masonry industry's view of this bill, because implicit in that is some favour or gain for the wood industry. So the masonry industry would not support that. There are other means--

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Is it your view that this would mean that it wouldn't also give consideration...? I mean, doesn't it already give consideration to, obviously, concrete and steel--

10:25 a.m.

Consultant and Structural Engineer, Canadian Concrete Masonry Producers Association

Gary Sturgeon

Well, certainly it does, but what it's implicitly doing in that is it's flagging and singling out a single product and the assemblies that are produced by that product. One is best to leave that to the purview of the designer. The designer makes those decisions based upon the requirements of the National Building Code of Canada, and makes those decisions based on the education that's been provided for that individual--by the wood industry, by the steel industry, by the concrete industry--with the tools that are available for that professional to design, etc.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you.

I have only a minute left, so I'll ask Ms. Mourant for her comment on that.

10:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, ARXX Building Products Inc.

Gael Mourant

If you're talking about trying to get to a level playing field, then you don't single out a material and say, “It's still a level playing field, but let us call attention to this particular material.” We would not support that.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

What are your thoughts on the question of the national building code amendments?

10:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, ARXX Building Products Inc.

Gael Mourant

There's an infrastructure in place to address these issues. It has worked for many years and it should be the method that's followed.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

I don't know if I have time to ask Monsieur Chevrette....

Oh, okay. Twenty seconds is not enough time to ask very much, so I'll pass to the next questioner, Mr. Chair.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay.

Monsieur Bouchard.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

My first question is addressed to Mr. Chevrette. Mr. Jeffery may want to add his own comments afterwards.

Mr. Chevrette, you said that several European countries are using wood to build their buildings and that several governments are also promoting wood. You referred to Sweden and other European countries. Would you say that those countries are all unaware of international law and the fact that certain rights could be violated under certain agreements?

Before you answer, I would just like to mention that someone made that point. In your opinion, is it possible that Bill C-429, which priorizes wood based on cost and the potential for greenhouse gas reduction, would violate these international agreements?

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

I do not see how it could violate international agreements. We are asking neither for subsidies nor price cuts. We simply want to be given a chance and have our say in the matter, something we don't have at this time. I was listening to witnesses from the Canadian Construction Association say that they have no objection to the use of wood. But they are not in favour either, because they even object to there being equity in terms of materials.

I personally opened the door to one amendment a little earlier, at the end of my statement. If the word “preference” doesn't suit you, by all means change it in favour of words like “equity” or “access and equity”. We don't have either. The benefits are all going elsewhere. And now they're going to scare people by talking about earthquakes in Canada. As we speak, they are building small houses that can resist earthquakes in Haiti, where they have more earthquakes than anywhere else in the world, and wood holds up better than concrete.

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

In other words, if Canada were to pass Bill C-429, the Canadian government would not be the first government to do this; it would not in any way be innovative in that regard since this is already being done elsewhere.

Can you give us some specific examples, perhaps even from Quebec or British Columbia? I noted that France has set a percentage. Could you tell us about that?

October 21st, 2010 / 10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

There are no two places where it's the same. In some countries, there is a policy in place on the use of wood. In others, regulations require a certain percentage of wood—10%, 15% or 20%—to be used for the construction of public buildings. It's highly variable. In Sweden, for example, it took a very long time before they were able to start building bridges. It took them 10 years to convince their inner circle, like this one. However, 10 years afterwards, they built more than 100 bridges, to everyone's complete satisfaction. They are quicker to repair and to maintain.

There are taboos out there. I realize that everyone is trying to get a bigger piece of the pie, but I am stunned to hear groups like the Canadian Construction Association object to equality in the use of materials—particularly because the Canadian Construction Association is made up of people who perform work for the people giving them work, and we give the work. Governments also give lots of work. How could they possibly be affected by the fact that materials would all be on an equal footing? So, I beg you to show some rigour here.

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Mr. Chevrette, you talked about equity. In the bill, as you know, the expression “give preference to” means that if the cost is the same or less, wood would be used, and if the cost is greater, an alternative solution would be sought.

Is that how you interpret Bill C-429?

10:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

I interpreted it--

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You have less than a minute.