Government Operations Committee on Oct. 28th, 2010

[Supt Tim Charlebois]

Yes. I would be happy to.

As Chief Superintendent MacNeil said, as part of the planning process in Barrie where we established our offices, we had over 100 officers working on the planning process strictly on behalf of the OPP during the two years leading up to the event. That was part of our costs in working within the integrated security unit.

As in most operations, one of the biggest expenditures is for salaries and overtime. In infrastructure costs for the G-8, particularly because of the location, there were extra expenditures around telecommunications. It was one of our larger expenditures that had to be implemented.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Coady.

Go ahead, Mr. Calandra.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you for being here.

I love talking about the G-8 and G-20. I'm a member from the GTA and I think security was spectacular. The ability of York Regional Police to be involved was also a dramatic benefit, and everything that came out of it was a huge benefit to my region and my part of the country.

As I was doing some research into this, I noted that a lot of comparisons have been made with other countries and how much their costs are and so on. I was at the G-8 in Italy, which was the G-35 when you have all the countries that were invited.

I think Italy fits into Ontario 32 times and France fits into Ontario 18 times. Italy has close to 400,000 people in their police forces, in their security services. I know that Germany has a policing to population...they're 18th; France is 33rd; the U.K. is 34th; and Japan is 40th.

I also read today that Korea is having their G-20. The Korean ambassador mentioned that it'll probably be cheaper for them because, in his words:

South Korea will avoid these costs entirely. The police in Seoul will come from the ranks of the country's compulsory two-year military or police service.

They're paid very little and they bring their own tents.

He was asked further about the fact that the United States has 30,000 men and women on the ground there and will be providing a great deal of other intelligence and other security for that. If that was factored in, he was asked, would the costs be over $1 billion? The ambassador said, well of course it would be, but they don't have to factor that in because the United States is paying for that.

Here's what I'm wondering about. You've mentioned it, but does the sheer size of this country, the sheer fact that we had to bring police in from all over the country, from Vancouver, Quebec, Newfoundland, and Nova Scotia and house them here...? And we didn't ask them to bring their own tents: we treated them with respect. I have to assume that you accepted.... I know that in my force, when I spoke to my chief in York region, he said that you respected their contracts and overtime was paid when it was required. Does that not factor into making this summit perhaps more expensive than others?

I'll make this final point and then I'll let you answer. When research was done into the cost of this summit in comparison to others, I know that the Munk Centre reported that the G-8 component of it is comparable to any other summit, including Kananaskis, and the G-20 portion is also comparable to any other summit being held in any other part of the world.

So how does the sheer size of this country and the fact that we don't have the infrastructure like other countries do....? In Italy, with 400,000 people, within an hour they can have police. They're not paying overtime for their 400,000 people they can pull from.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Calandra, I thank you for the world tour, but did you direct that question to anyone?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

The superintendent.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Chief Superintendent MacNeil, you have a little over a minute and a half to respond.

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

The answer is yes: having to bring in police officers from all over Canada is extremely expensive.

Before the G-20s started taking place, the G-8 alone was known as the largest annual global security event. Now, I guess, the G-20 is challenging that. But if you put the two together, and Canada was....This was unique. It had never happened before. To supply security for the two largest annual global security events at the same time is a massive undertaking. There's nothing in the world to compare it to. I've had colleagues around the world who've said that we don't have anything to compare it to. They've called me and I've talked to them a lot. They want to know how to do it.

You're right. A lot of other countries do have more police officers, and the police officers we do have are coming in from coast to coast. We brought them from British Columbia and we brought them from Newfoundland and we didn't have a place for them to stay, so we had to bring them into temporary accommodation--

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

To take care of them.

Let me just ask you two really quick questions. Who made the policing decisions on the ground in the city of Toronto? Was it you or was it the Toronto Police Service?

The extra glow sticks that everybody likes to talk about: what happened to them afterwards?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, Mr. Calandra has left you with no time to answer questions about glow sticks.

Ms. Bourgeois, your turn.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am trying to wrap my head around this. A political decision was made to hold two summits at the same time. One of those summits was held in a remote riding, which led to a lot of extra spending. We know that the Ontario Provincial Police had to have special communication towers built. You had to assume certain costs, such as the $5 million for rental vehicles for the RCMP. I want you to explain what that amount was for. Initially, the decision came down from politicians, but there was no financial planning.

As members, we cannot be accountable to the public because we do not know what the budget was to start with. We cannot estimate and check whether the money spent on the two summits was in line with operational budgets.

This is for you, Mr. Boisvert. Earlier, you told me that the threat assessment in terms of participants was medium. What was the threat assessment for the Olympic Games in Vancouver?

[Ray Boisvert]

Mr. Chair, I cannot answer questions about the 2010 Olympic Games in Vancouver. I am not comfortable comparing the two events without accurate information.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Very well. I will continue with Mr. MacNeil.

Mr. MacNeil, the security budget for the two summits, which lasted a total of 72 hours, was twice that of the Olympic Games, which lasted 12 days. Can you explain that?

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

I can't really compare it to the Olympics, but what I can say is that, as I mentioned earlier, some of our people were on the ground for a month. The majority of them were on the ground for 10 days--at least 10 days--in advance of the summits in order to properly secure the areas.

Maybe I can explain that for just one moment. Let's consider Huntsville, for example, the G-8 site. The Deerhurst Lodge has many buildings around the area. We would have to go in. Our bomb dogs would search every building. Then, once it's searched, someone has to stay with it so they can prove no one has been in that building since. That's why it takes so long. It takes days and days to do that.

The other thing, and I think more importantly is—

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Did you not do the same for the Olympic Games? Did you not have to check all the Olympic facilities and surrounding villages? I find it odd. The cost of security for 72 hours was $1 billion. It was not that much for the 12 days of the Olympic Games; in fact, it was two times less.

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

Absolutely. I agree that it was done for the Olympic Games as well, but there's a second point I was going to make. I just wanted to explain that we hear three days all the time, but it's much longer than that, and the more important point is that we're securing a conference or a summit here for the world leaders, all the leaders of the world, high-level-security people requiring high-level packages of security, as opposed to the Olympic Games, which is athletes in a sporting event. For us, this was a pure security event that had the highest level of vulnerability.

With the Olympics, if you think back now, do you remember who came? Do you remember what leaders came? Do you remember what day they came on? Do you remember when they left?

But for the G-20 and the G-8, everyone in the world that has an Internet site or a newspaper knows when the leaders are coming, who is coming, how long they're staying, where they're staying, and where the meetings are. The vulnerability on that is extreme because it's open to everyone. That's why it is so much harder to secure and why, even though it's a shorter period of time—and I totally agree with you on what you said—the concentration for that shorter period of time is what drives up the cost.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Davies, please.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you. Can you tell me if in the budgeting process there was ever a figure allocated that estimated the number of people who might be arrested during the summit?

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

I wasn't directly involved in the planning--

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Sure. That's to anybody. I'm sorry.

Does anybody know--

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

Maybe I can ask Superintendent Charlebois to comment on the OPP, for example.

[Supt Tim Charlebois]

Again, I can't speak for the Toronto G-20, where there were a number of arrests made. I can only speak for the G-8. We did an assessment of past events, what we thought the risks were associated with those events, and on what we might expect during the G-8. When the G-20 came along and all of a sudden we went from a rural area to an urban area, the vulnerabilities changed. We established a process of what we thought....

Again, going back to the infrastructure of Huntsville, there is only one OPP detachment there with 22 officers. We built an assessment on that, on potential risks to that and to the arrest process, and what we could expect. We put that process in place. I can't speak for Toronto.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm taking that as an answer that yes, there was an estimate before the summits of how many people would be arrested. That has to be part of the budgeting and the planning process.

[Supt Tim Charlebois]

I can say that we did that for the G-8. Again, I can't speak for the G-20 in Toronto.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

What was that number, sir, that was used? How many people were expected to be arrested during that summit in preparation for the summit?

[Supt Tim Charlebois]

Again, only speaking for the G-8 in the Huntsville area, and given the fact that the OPP is the police service of jurisdiction and had one detachment and two cells, and looking at past events in Germany and Italy, we put a process in place and estimated that we would probably have to process a maximum of 250 people at any given time.