Government Operations Committee on Dec. 14th, 2010

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's quite helpful. So beefing up whistle-blower legislation is the lesson to be learned from your expertise.

I have one last question, and then I hope I have enough time to go to Ms. Trombetti. When it comes to collusion, usually it has to happen when there's trust between two or more employees conspiring to a certain end. Do you think there is enough movement within and between departments? Even though you might keep them at the same pay grade, if you keep people moving around, that sometimes makes it more difficult. Do you have any recommendations for this committee along those lines, either to flatten the organizational structure to make the distance between a low-level decision-maker and a higher level...and/or to move staff around sufficiently to prevent collusion? Would that be a useful policy for Public Works to look at?

[Stephen Hollander]

Well, certainly employee rotation is a good policy in principle. What happens often in practice is that you lose out on the benefit of people's expertise, so you have to weigh out whether the gain is worth the loss, and this is a judgment that management has to make.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Hollander, and thank you, Mr. Calkins.

Mr. Hyer, go ahead for eight minutes, please.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thanks very much.

Good morning.

Ms. Trombetti, first of all, I apologize for my lateness because of the weather, so I may be asking questions that have been asked or go over things that have already been discussed. If I do so, you can tell me.

Firstly, do you believe that the process of awarding contracts for renovating the parliamentary buildings was adequate, and if not, in your opinion, how could it best be improved?

[Oriana Trombetti]

I mentioned during our opening statement that our office has not had an opportunity to review this particular contract, so we cannot express an opinion on it.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

In general, do you feel that the processes for procuring these kinds of contracts need improvement, and if so, what are some key areas where improvement could best be made?

[Oriana Trombetti]

Again, during the opening statement we talked a bit about construction contract amendments. Our office did a practice review in this area. We looked at a framework that Public Works and Government Services has. We also understand that other government departments now are acquiring delegated authority to acquire their own construction services, and some of the recommendations we made are contained within that practice review: that those particular agencies—Fisheries and Oceans, Parks Canada, and RCMP—adopt the same framework that Public Works has implemented in managing construction contract amendments.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Do you feel that the current systems are fair, open, and transparent? And again, building on your last response, are there ways in which, if you don't think they're where they need to be or go, what specific steps could be taken to make them better?

[Oriana Trombetti]

Our office has done a number of practice reviews, and generally we have found that the systems, processes, and practices are aimed at promoting fairness, openness, and transparency. Of those practice reviews, though, we have looked at specific areas and we have made recommendations that could foster improvement.

I'll use as an example--and relate it to some of the discussion that's going on here this morning--a practice review that the office conducted on oversight in government departments. This was one of the practice reviews that we conducted in the first year, and we chose to go into nine departments, I believe it was, to see how they manage oversight and whether or not they have an oversight committee looking at the contracts they're awarding. Again, I would invite you to read it. It's on our website.

We found there that oversight committees do exist. We made some recommendations for improving those oversight committees--in particular, ensuring that contracts that are of high dollar value or create more risk for the particular government department be presented to those oversight committees so that an appropriate challenge function could occur.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Particularly in the area of making sure that a single supplier or a particular supplier is not favoured, what mechanisms are there to make sure that kind of favouritism does not occur, in the general sense, in procurement policies?

[Oriana Trombetti]

I'm sorry. Can you rephrase your question?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

To put a finer point on the previous question—

[Oriana Trombetti]

You're talking about sole-source contracts--

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Or where there is competitive bidding. What protective mechanisms are in place to make sure that a particular supplier is not favoured?

[Oriana Trombetti]

In the area of sole-source contracts, the government uses something called an “advance contract award notice”, which is a notice that goes out to the supplier community advising that a particular contract is going to be awarded to a particular supplier. That advance contract award notice is intended to ensure that there are no other suppliers who can provide the same service, and it provides an opportunity for someone who feels they can provide the service to come forward and challenge the award or make their case.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

My last question to you, Ms. Trombetti, is perhaps not within your mandate or within your field of expertise, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Are there any mechanisms in the procurement process dealing with the quality of projects, not just the fairness of the bidding process? The area I'm particularly interested in is environmental sustainability.

My office is in the West Block. I'm going to miss it when I have to go. I love it despite its shortcomings. It has always seemed to me that there's an incredible opportunity there to make it a demonstration project through these renovations for environmental sustainability, with things like solar panels on the roof, either for hot water heating or for electrical generation; the opportunity, with the huge lawn we have in front of the Peace Tower, to do shallow geothermal, where we could do heating and cooling and make it 40% or 50% more efficient than other methods and show many of us across Canada a way, if we ever get our ecoENERGY program back, that could make things more sustainable.

Is that at all part of the procurement process, to ensure that the kinds of policies we give lip service to--to move towards lowering greenhouse gases and increasing conservation efficiency--are included in such contracts?

[Oriana Trombetti]

I'm going to ask my colleague Paul Morse to respond to this question.

[Paul Morse, Senior Advisor, Procurement Practices Review, Office of the Procurement Ombudsman]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Hyer.

Yes, sir, there is an order in council, I think it's from 2004, that instructs people in government that sustainability should be taken into account in all operations. So anything, whether it's procurement or other operations, is supposed to be taken into account. Public Works and Government Services Canada has a separate directorate called the Office of Greening Government Operations that is trying to lead that effort across government. For example, when standing-offer commodities are being looked at and so on, that Office of Greening Government Operations would have some input into the commodity team and try to promote sustainability in the types of products that are being selected.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Morse, how do parliamentarians or the general public access those kinds of thoughts or discussions? Is there a mechanism for people to check on whether those initiatives have been taken and to review them and make comments?

[Paul Morse]

I know the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development has issued a number or reports where that sort of thing has been referred to. The Office of Greening Government Operations has a bit of its own reporting, but there's not an awful lot of monitoring, as far as I know.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thanks, Mr. Hyer. Unfortunately, your eight minutes are up.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

Mr. Coderre, you have five minutes.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

A big five minutes! Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Trombetti, I am trying to understand. We are going to do a little exercise together. The former ombudsman was Mr. Minto, am I correct?

[Oriana Trombetti]

Yes.