Government Operations Committee on March 8th, 2011

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm going to call the meeting back to order. We are now no longer in camera.

We have with us our witnesses, and on behalf of the committee I'd like to welcome Madame Henry, Madame Hassard, and Mr. Wild.

I'm sure you're experienced before this committee and others, so as you know, you'll have up to 10 minutes to make a presentation, and then after that, of course, members will wish to ask you questions.

I'm assuming Madame Hassard is going to make the presentation. Thank you.

[Patricia Hassard, Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I have with me today Ms. Joyce Henry, who is the director of appointments in Privy Council Office, and Mr. Joe Wild, who is the assistant secretary for machinery of government in Privy Council Office.

I am very pleased to appear before you today to discuss the appointment process for the next Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

Section 39 of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act sets out the statutory requirements related to the appointment of the commissioner by the Governor in Council. This occurs only after consultation with the leaders of every recognized party in the Senate and the House of Commons, and the approval of the appointment, by resolution, of the Senate and the House of Commons.

Governor in Council appointments are those made by the Governor General on the advice of the Queen's Privy Council of Canada as represented by cabinet. The role of the public service in the appointments is to implement processes, agreed to by the government, to bring to the political decision-makers candidates who are qualified for the position.

The government is committed to competency-based, open, and transparent selection processes for Governor in Council positions. The Prime Minister set out his expectations with respect to Governor in Council appointments in “Accountable Government: A Guide for Ministers and Ministers of State”.

The guide states that “It is essential for appointees to be well qualified, and senior government appointments must be chosen through a process that ensures broad and open consideration of proposed candidates.” Further, it specifies that an important aspect of the appointment process is the desire to ensure that GIC appointments “reflect Canada's diversity in terms of linguistic, regional, and employment equity representation.” Finally, the guide reiterates that some appointments—including those of agents of Parliament, such as the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner—are subject to parliamentary review and approval before they can be made.

The new commissioner will be appointed in accordance with the act and in a manner consistent with the practices introduced by the government to improve the transparency and rigour of the appointments system.

This guidance was first laid out for ministers in 2009 in a document entitled “A Guide to Managing the Governor in Council Appointments Process”. I do have a copy of the guide in both official languages, Mr. Chairman, that I would be pleased to provide for the committee, should you wish.

The guide focuses on the key elements required for a rigorous process, including overall expectations and appropriate steps for recruitment to ensure the transparency of the process and to maximize access to appointments.

For context, I would like to provide you with a brief overview of the main elements of the selection process before focusing more specifically on the process to select the new commissioner.

Selection processes for Governor in Council appointments, including agents of Parliament, are comprised of three main elements.

The first is the establishment of selection criteria to reflect the key requirements necessary for a candidate to be considered qualified for the position.

The second is the development of a recruitment strategy which outlines how candidates for the position will be sought. This can range from posting the position on the Governor in Council appointments website and publishing it in the Canada Gazette, to a more elaborate process which may include engaging an executive search firm, a national advertising strategy and targeted outreach to, for example, professional groups and stakeholders.

The third is the assessment of candidates' qualifications against the established selection criteria. Normally this would involve interviews with a short-list of candidates and reference checks.

With respect to the appointment of the new commissioner, we will be making important changes to the process that was followed in 2007.

First of all, a selection committee will be established to steer all aspects of the process. This committee will determine the selection criteria for the position, approve the recruitment and advertising strategy, and assess the qualifications of candidates. They will then provide recommendations to the government.

The President of the Treasury Board will chair the selection committee, given his responsibilities for the promotion of ethical practices in the public sector pursuant to section 4 of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act.

I would underline that the selection committee members will include a mix of those from outside the public service and those from within. They will be highly respected individuals who have experience and knowledge relevant to staffing the position in the fields of law, ethics, public service, and agents of Parliament. Additionally, all will have senior leadership experience.

Secondly, an executive search firm will be engaged to ensure the broadest possible search for qualified candidates is undertaken.

Thirdly, in addition to interviews and reference checks, which are already a key part of our selection processes for leadership positions, psychometric assessment of the leading candidates will be undertaken. This is a tool we have only very recently introduced. It involves assessment by a psychologist to help ascertain an individual's qualities of character, thinking style, capabilities in relating to others as a leader, judgment, and response in stressful situations. It can also help to assess those attributes that staff and colleagues can find alienating, which is important when considering individuals for leadership positions.

Mr. Chair, as you know, the act establishes that the appointment of an interim commissioner is for a maximum of six months. Accordingly, the interim commissioner's term will end on June 18, 2011. The government plans to move as expeditiously as possible to recruit and select a commissioner for this important role.

The selection committee will begin its work, starting with the review of the selection criteria. I have brought with me, in both official languages, the selection criteria from the 2007 process. Mr. Chairman, I'd be happy to table these documents with the committee, should you wish.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, because the commissioner is an agent of Parliament, once the government has identified a candidate, there will be a consultation with the leaders of all recognized parties in the House of Commons and the Senate before the nomination is tabled. Then Parliament will have the opportunity to review the qualifications of the candidate to satisfy itself that he or she is suitable for the position. Parliament plays an important role in vetting agents of Parliament prior to their appointments. In fact, no appointment can be made without Parliament's approval.

I know the Auditor General provided your committee with the collected thoughts of the current agents of Parliament on how to ensure robust parliamentary review of these appointments. This is a welcome development.

I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have on the selection and appointment process for the next Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

Thank you. Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Hassard.

I'm assuming the committee wishes to have both the selection criteria and the guide, and I'm assuming they would prefer that sooner rather than later. So in the event you do have them with you, our clerk will be able to get them.

[Patricia Hassard]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. On the second point, with respect to procedure, colleagues, I received a notice from Madame Coady. I propose taking five minutes at the end to deal with committee business, unless there's serious objection to the contrary. So with that, I'll ask—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

When did you receive the notice, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

During the break between our first and second sessions.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Do we not usually need 24 hours' notice that there's a—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

How often do we deal with a motion, or a notice of motion, within hours of—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, I appreciate that, but I still have to tell the committee that I received this motion.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

If I may, all I asked was whether we were dealing with committee business, and if we were dealing with committee business, I had a motion. That was my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. I misunderstood it, then. I apologize.

Mr. Regan.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

And thank you to the witnesses for appearing before us today.

Let me begin by asking you if each of you can provide the committee, by the end of business tomorrow, with a list of who you met with to prepare for today's meeting and a brief description of what was discussed. I see you nodding; I'll take that as a yes. Thank you.

Let me ask you, does the Privy Council Office have any lessons learned from this failure by the first integrity commissioner?

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, I'll try to answer that.

I think the fact that we are going to approach the new recruitment process somewhat differently is an indication that we feel the process could be stronger. As I mentioned, I think there are really three new elements in the recruitment process for the next Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

The first is that the selection committee will have a mix of people on it from different backgrounds to represent the various points of view that will be necessary to find a commissioner of the highest calibre. They will be from both within government and outside government.

The second thing is that we will be hiring a search firm. We're doing this more and more. I think the reason is that not infrequently people who apply for positions are not necessarily all of the candidates you might want to look at. In the past, the senior personnel secretariat has acted as the search firm for Governor in Council appointees. But we find that if we can do a national search, there's a very broad consideration of many candidates.

As I mentioned, we will also be doing something that is relatively new. We've been doing it for the past year. It's a psychometric assessment of the leading candidates for some of our leadership positions. It's a new tool. In several processes that we've been involved in, we found it to be very helpful in being precise on who would be the right leader for a particular position.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

You've probably seen the letter from Mr. Keyserlingk to this committee.

[Patricia Hassard]

Yes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

You know that he talked about the difficulty in choosing someone from within the existing public service. On the one hand, this person would naturally be more likely to get along with people who are colleagues and essentially peers at the same level, such as deputy ministers and so forth, and would therefore be reluctant to find wrongdoing. Secondly, in terms of the effect on his or her career by displeasing the Clerk of the Privy Council or other DMs, the person would be reluctant to find fault.

In view of his strong advice or his urging that the government or Parliament look outside the public service for the Integrity Commissioner, as he advised when he left office, and as he advised when the last Integrity Commissioner was chosen and his advice was ignored, and as he advises again, why do I not see that in your comments, or have I missed it?

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, in answer to that question, I would say that I don't think we should close the door on any particular type of background. I think you will find that if you look at the current officers and agents of Parliament, there are many with strong public service backgrounds who have been successful in their roles. I don't think it should be a barrier to becoming the next Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

On the other point you made about relationships, this position has a tenure of seven years, and the statute guarantees the independence of the individual. I think it gives you some assurance that the individual would be a strong overseer.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

One would have thought so, but we didn't see that with the recently departed Integrity Commissioner, which is exactly what Mr. Keyserlingk predicted. He precisely pointed out the problem, and I'm concerned that it appears the PCO, and maybe the PMO as well, are ignoring his advice.

Let me move on. By what selection criteria did the Privy Council Office and the Prime Minister's Office think that Ms. Ouimet was a good candidate and the right candidate?

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, I think if you look at her curriculum vitae, you will see that every aspect of the selection criteria was met.

She had significant experience as a senior executive in the public service. She'd been an associate deputy minister in two departments, Agriculture and Agri-food and Public Works, over a period of four years. She was trained as a lawyer. She was the executive director of the Immigration and Refugee Board, which, as you probably know, is our largest administrative tribunal. She had good, solid, quasi-judicial experience.

She also had experience in managing investigations and in oversight, because she played a role as director of enforcement operations at customs. She was at the Public Service Commission as chair of the appeal boards for public service appointments, demotions, and dismissals. She also had several leadership roles as an assistant deputy minister in corrections and policing, and she was the chief executive officer of Consulting and Audit Canada.

Mr. Chairman, I think there were other characteristics that we and Parliament were looking for. She is a franco-Ontarian who is fully bilingual and was willing to take the position. We were confident that she would've been a good candidate.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

So she looked good on paper, if you were going to hire a public servant, which is what Mr. Keyserlingk strongly advised against.

Who created the selection criteria for this Governor in Council appointment?

[Patricia Hassard]

The selection criteria were a joint effort. In fact, we consulted Mr. Keyserlingk about the selection criteria. He commented on them, and in the end it was the Privy Council Office that finalized the criteria.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Who was on the selection committee when Ms. Ouimet was chosen, and who was the chair?

[Patricia Hassard]

We did not have a formal selection committee.