Government Operations Committee on March 8th, 2011

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Was she chosen by the Clerk of the Privy Council, by the Prime Minister...?

[Patricia Hassard]

I should probably back up a little bit.

As you may know, this position was advertised in the Canada Gazette and on the Governor in Council website. The selection criteria were there, and the notice of vacancy. Twelve individuals applied through the advertised process, and when those applications were screened, it was clear that none of those individuals met the selection criteria, in which case, because we did not have a search firm, the senior personnel secretariat, in effect, became the search firm. We referred six individual names for discussion, and of those, the one who most closely met the criteria was Madame Ouimet.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

When you were talking a moment ago about who created the selection criteria for this appointment, were you referring to this time or to the time when she was appointed?

[Patricia Hassard]

I'm sorry. I thought you were asking about the time in 2007.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

Has someone different created the criteria this time?

[Patricia Hassard]

We haven't finalized the criteria this time.

As I mentioned, what we will be doing is setting up a selection committee, chaired by the President of the Treasury Board. That committee will finalize the selection criteria.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

Madame Bourgeois, vous aurez huit minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, ladies. Good morning, Mr. Wild. Thank you for being here today.

Ms. Hassard, on page 2 of your opening statement, you say: “ In this context, the role of the public service in appointments is to implement processes, agreed to by the government…”

What do you mean by “agreed to by the government”?

[Patricia Hassard]

Yes, certainly.

Mr. Chairman, the policies that are followed in the recruitment and selection of Governor in Council appointees are policies of the Government of Canada, not policies of the Privy Council Office. They are policies agreed to by the government.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Did you also mention Privy Council policies? I did not completely understand.

[Patricia Hassard]

The policies we follow in the recruitment and selection of Governor in Council appointees are policies set out in the document “Managing the Governor in Council Appointments Process”. That set of guidelines was approved by the government.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

On page 4 of the same document, you say: “First of all, a selection committee will be established…”

You say that important changes will be made to the process that was followed in 2007. That is why the rest of page 4 is written in the future tense. Are you saying that Ms. Ouimet was selected by the Privy Council Office in 2007 using a process that was not well conceived in comparison with the new process that you have just described to us? The differences were enormous. Is it possible that Ms. Ouimet was persuaded to submit an application by people in the Privy Council Office who knew her?

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, I think I was explaining that when the twelve individuals who applied for the position were matched up against the selection criteria, none met all of the selection criteria. In a case like that, when we are looking for individuals for a particular position, we rely on our own sources--in this case, our own database of individuals, our own knowledge of the senior leadership.

In this case, Madame Ouimet was identified and her qualifications matched up, and it was a very good match. She was considered a good candidate for this position.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

One thing surprises me, Ms. Hassard. In your presentation today, you say that you are going to be using psychometric assessment. That seems to be something new for you. Psychometric assessment has existed for more than 20 years. I have used it myself with various appointments to CLSCs, groups in Quebec. I do not understand how you at the Privy Council Office have so few tools for finding candidates.

Mr. Martin has made us aware of Mr. Keyserlingk's observations. He says in his document that he has met you and that you agreed with some of his observations. But today, we can see that you did not put them into effect at all.

Ms. Hassard, is this saying that, for Ms. Ouimet's appointment, the Privy Council Office did what it liked, that there was no way anyone was going to mess with the appointment at the time, and that it was predetermined and biased?

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, when Mr. Keyserlingk came in—I believe that was before my time in this role, because he did not meet with me—I understand that he had some views about the selection criteria. Not all of his views were incorporated into the final document.

We left it so that a person with experience in either the private or public sector could be considered for this position.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Ms. Hassard, after Ms. Ouimet left and after this disaster and all this kerfuffle surrounding the position of Public Service Integrity Commissioner, Ms. Fraser, the Auditor General of Canada, appeared before this committee to report to us on the situation. That was December 14, 2010. On the afternoon of the same day, Stockwell Day appointed an interim commissioner. So that means that neither your office, nor Stockwell Day had any knowledge of what the Auditor General of Canada and Mr. Keyserlingk had said. So you learned nothing from Ms. Ouimet's appointment. I find that appalling.

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of points to make in response to that question.

The first one is that under the statute an interim commissioner is only appointed for six months. It's meant as a transitional measure while we do a thorough and rigorous search for the next Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

I think I'll stop there.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Ms. Hassard, the new process seems to indicate that you are going to learn from this experience. Has it started, or have you just established the framework?

[Patricia Hassard]

Well, it has started to the extent that we're looking at the selection criteria, we have a chair of our selection committee, and we're in the process of confirming the other members of the selection committee. That would be our first step.

The next step would be to have a meeting of that committee at which they review the selection criteria and the approach to advertising and recruitment and the selection of a search firm.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

In terms of the selection criteria, Mr. Keyserlingk recommended the possibility of appointing someone from outside the public service. As he explains it, you have to consider human behaviour. In the course of doing the job, this senior official, with the responsibility for passing judgment on untoward actions, could be called upon to judge the actions of his colleagues. Are you going to consider that recommendation from Mr. Keyserlingk?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Very briefly, please.

[Patricia Hassard]

I can be very brief, Mr. Chairman.

I'll just say that in the criteria, I think we would want to include “experience in either private or public”. I don't think we want to dismiss the idea that a person with a public sector background could be a fantastic candidate for this position.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Regan has suggested to me, for the purposes of people who may be watching this, that we should describe who Mr. Keyserlingk is. He has a doctorate and a master's in law, and he has given advice on the issue of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

As he says in his letter, he was appointed as the public service integrity officer, which preceded this role of the commissioner. It's just a point of information.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I don't think we need to go beyond that. Thank you.

I think it's Mr. Calandra and/or Monsieur Gourde.