Evidence of meeting #55 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appointments.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Well, that's an interesting question. We've always made a distinction between the hiring regimes of the core public service and the crown corporations. I think there would have to be some careful thought about what we really want to do with the crown corporations.
Liberal
Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Maybe we could have guidelines or something of that nature that would cross-reference and adhere to what I'm going to call the code of conduct, if I could, of the public service.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
I think we should take a careful look at the experience with the integrity commissioner and that whole whistle-blowing legislation. There was an effort to spread it out to the crown corporations. I started my career in a crown corporation, and it was not an organization that was particularly bent on doing things wrong. They're trying to do things properly as well. Traditionally you don't have an organization like the public service take over that responsibility.
Going back to your question, if I may, we do the individual investigations, but these are--
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
--public servants. We can order corrective measures that go up to taking the person out of the public service, so we have a lot of power. I don't have any power, though, to do anything in terms of that Governor in Council level. I think that one is more open to me in terms of--
Liberal
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
There should be powers either with the commission or with another appointment agency. There should be broader powers.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
There are a number of things the Ethics Commissioner can handle, too.
Liberal
Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
I have one final question, and then I'm out of time.
I note that you asked for a statutory change that would allow the PSC to investigate any complaint of improper political activity on the part of a deputy head. I also noted earlier the report yesterday from the Information Commissioner asking again, from her perspective, for additional changes to allow her greater investigative powers.
Is this something new? Is there a growing need for this kind of authority?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Times and circumstances change, and you have to react to the times and circumstances and make sure that your legislation is up to date. On the specific clause you're referring to, we have the powers to investigate improper political activity of a deputy minister if the complaint is laid by a candidate in an election. I think that's too restrictive. I think we should have the power to investigate any complaint. It shouldn't be restricted to somebody who is running for office.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
I believe Madam Ratansi had a short question. I'll give you just a minute to do that.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
In your article 4.89 you made a recommendation in the last bullet point on page 26. You were talking about changes to the act to protect investigators and auditors. They do not have protection currently, either for themselves personally or for the information they obtain. What has been your experience? What happens to them when they investigate? Have they been threatened? Have they been physically harmed? What is the issue here?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Well, we do actually have cases of that. My investigators and auditors have been threatened, and that we have to manage, but this particular clause is for protections in front of the courts.
Maybe I can ask Mr. Arseneault to explain it technically. It's just so they are protected. If they are doing their job legally and correctly, they can't be compelled to be witnesses as individuals.
Can I just ask you to...?
Senior General Counsel and Vice-President, Legal Affairs Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
It is fairly common for administrative tribunals to have this type of protection for members, in fact. If they make a decision of some kind that someone's not happy with, that someone shouldn't have access to suing them because the decision was wrong. It's that kind of thing. There's a process of review that has to be followed. As well, they shouldn't be compellable as a witness in a case that they have on other subject matter. It's really about protecting people who have to be in a decision-making capacity. It's the type of clause that exists in other legislation related to people who have decision-making power.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you.
Our rounds of questioning have been completed, but I believe Mr. Vincent has a short question of clarification.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
I see that, among your requests or recommendations, you want to amend the legislation so that paid commissioners can also have other jobs. Does this talk of two jobs mean that commissioners are not paid very much and they have to find other work in order to make ends meet?
We are giving commissioners the opportunity to work for the commission and to work elsewhere at the same time. It seems to me that something is not quite right.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
No, that is not the intent, as Mr. Arseneault told you. The way in which that section is presently written is too restrictive. For example, if we want to ask the president of the Public Service Commission to work as a member of the public appointments committee, it is not possible for us to do so.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
It depends. Commissioners are paid by the day, for the time they work. My salary is the same as a judge's. Perhaps I should explain the section better. There is just some overlap in the legislation.
Senior General Counsel and Vice-President, Legal Affairs Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
This section in the Public Service Employment Act has been in existence for a long time. But during that time, the Conflict of Interest Act has been passed, and it contains provisions for people who hold public office. For them, the provisions of the Public Service Employment Act and the provisions of the Conflict of Interest Act conflict a little.
So our proposal is to eliminate some provisions in the Public Service Employment Act because they are subject to those in the Conflict of Interest Act anyway. For part-time commissioners specifically, we certainly have to expect them to be earning their living elsewhere because they only come in one or two days per month. We cannot put too many restrictions in their way because we often want them to have the experience that will allow them to make a significant contribution. It is that kind of thing. We find that the Conflict of Interest Act is sufficient because it applies to all holders of public office.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Do any retired people work as commissioners? If they work one day per month, they have to have income that comes from somewhere else. If the act currently prevents them from seeking income elsewhere, does it meant they are retired?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
One of the commissioners is retired. The other has a position at a university.