Government Operations Committee on April 12th, 2010

[Michelle d'Auray]

No.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

How many Crown corporations are there in total?

[Michelle d'Auray]

I don't want to guess, since I don't have that number handy.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Give me a ballpark figure. You represent the Treasury Board, so you have to have an idea. Canada Post, for example, is one.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Yes, Canada Post is a Crown corporation.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

You don't know how many Crown corporations we have. How many government agencies are there? I am thinking of CIDA or the Canada Revenue Agency. How many agencies are there?

[Michelle d'Auray]

They are included in the list of departments.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

They are included. Are some departments affected more than others? For example, we will be pulling out of Afghanistan. As a result, is the budget of the Department of National Defence going to shrink compared to what is was in the last four years?

[Michelle d'Auray]

Madam Chair, as was indicated in the budget, there were targeted measures. For instance, one measure will limit or reduce the growth of the Department of National Defence's budget. The reduction included in the budget is of $1 billion. The same principle applies to restricting the growth of...

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I understand. The budget of the Department of National Defence is an easy target for political reasons, which are known to everyone.

Let's talk about international aid. Is this another sector which is being targeted? I am referring to a reduction in the budget of this department or of departments which are also involved with international aid.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Madam Chair, that was the second thing I wanted to point out. As far as the targeted measures contained in the budget are concerned, the envelope for international aid...

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you. Have other departments also been targeted? All I have been hearing so far are general principles. Each department is responsible for its own envelope. But what I am not hearing, and what I would like to hear, is whether some departments will be more affected by others if we are to have a balanced budget in 2014-2015.

[Michelle d'Auray]

As I indicated in my opening statement, there are three parts to the various measures announced in the budget. The first part contains targeted measures, which aim to limit the growth of the Department of National Defence's budget. I think that you will also see in the document...

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I am sorry, Ms. d'Auray, but I only have five minutes.

[Michelle d'Auray]

I am trying to answer your question.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Just give me the names of the departments. You mentioned National Defence and international aid. Are there any others?

[Michelle d'Auray]

Those are the only two which were targeted in the budget.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

So there are no others.

When we talk about limiting expenses as much as possible, at what price is that done, and based on which standards? For example, will rationalizations be made within our correctional facilities? Will the safety of employees and inmates be put at risk to ensure that no further investments are made in this sector, for instance?

[Michelle d'Auray]

Madam Chair, we are subject to very strict laws and regulations. We cannot and must not put at risk in any way our employees. We are subject to the Canada Labour Code. We are also governed by regulations and policies that have not been eliminated and that deputy ministers must follow.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Fine, that answers my question.

I have another one. At the time the Liberals were in power, Marcel Massé was the President of the Treasury Board. Approximately 15,000 jobs were affected. They were eliminated, and some positions were not filled. History is repeating itself, because the Conservatives have done the same thing in certain areas, with regard to certain boards of directors, where positions were eliminated when they ceased to exist or when they were not filled. Ten years later on, we have an additional 38,000 public servants.

What guarantee is there that the measures which have been taken, for instance, are not just window dressing and a convenient way to present the government's finances, but rather measures which will result in a real reduction in expenditures without affecting salaries or employees?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Nadeau, your time is up.

[Michelle d'Auray]

I think that all of those questions come down to this one, if I can put it that way, Madam Chair, namely whether we are issuing extremely specific and clear guidelines to ensure that the freeze on operating budgets is managed the same way everywhere.

Indeed, departments and deputy ministers manage their operation budgets based on a series of rules and guidelines which are issued by the Treasury Board and the Treasury Board Secretariat. These guidelines and approaches continue to apply at this time, but each department and each deputy minister must manage their resources based on priorities, programs and their mandate. Therefore, some departments choose to provide more services one way, whereas other departments provide them in other ways.

We are already operating within the system which allows different organizations to function in different ways, within a general framework, and based on their mandate and their programs. That has not changed, and it will not change even with the freeze on operating budgets. This is the way we currently operate, and this is the way we will continue to operate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

We'll go to the last round of questions.

Monsieur Gourde, pour cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Welcome, Mrs. d'Auray and Mr. Smith. I will ask you a couple of questions, but do not be afraid, I will not cut you off.

Regarding the important measures contained in the 2010-2011 Budget, including the freeze until 2012-2013, that will generate savings of $1.8 billion, I understand that the regular increases will be frozen. Will this move in fact help generate savings of $1.8 billion?

[Michelle d'Auray]

Exactly, Madam Chair.

Budgets are not being reduced. Rather, the amounts provided for in the fiscal framework, which could have been used to increase departmental operating budgets, will simply not be allocated. Therefore, there will be no growth. No additional expenses will be incurred. It's not a matter of making cutbacks, but rather of imposing a freeze on increases in operating budgets.