Government Operations Committee on April 12th, 2010

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Should that come to you by way of a formal request from this committee, or is this something you can volunteer to undertake?

[Kevin Page]

I would volunteer to undertake it, sir. It is not only that we would volunteer to do the work; we actually need the information.

Again, if we could come back to you, if necessary, to tell you the exact information we need--we've given you this framework today--we'd be happy to draft it up. Again, we would send this to the Treasury Board Secretariat and say that this is what the committee needs to do its work. We could undertake the analysis based on that information request.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I think the whole public discourse would benefit if we all had equal access to that same base level of information so we could have a proper debate about whether this is a good thing to do or if it has merit or if the impact or the benefit outweighs the risk.

I note--it's just an interesting curiosity....

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Wrap it up.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I will wrap it up. It's my final point.

Back in the sixties, ordinary MPs didn't have access to the Library of Parliament. Only cabinet ministers did. It was Pierre Trudeau who said that public discourse would benefit if everybody had access to this information. Why should we hoard information? It doesn't benefit anyone. I think the same applies today. We can elaborate on that same notion that if we're in some kind of economic crisis--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I would remind you to finish.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

--we should all be paddling our canoes together in the same direction with the same base level of information.

My point is made, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Thank you very much for being here. Your presentation and your risk analysis has created a buzz around here.

Madame Bourgeois wanted to make a motion.

We have an understanding that the type of information you are looking for is baseline: what it is; what the fixed costs and operating costs are; what the fairness in the system is; whether the central agency has the same constraints as CIDA, as an example, or CFIA; and what exactly the fiscal targets are. You have to be mindful that the committee receives that information, and the committee will then determine whether they can share that information. It is a protocol we have to go through, because information always comes to the committee.

In that regard, Madame Bourgeois has a motion. I am letting the motion be read here because you're here, and if the information you're looking for is not in the motion, I'd like to know.

Madame Bourgeois, would you like to read the motion?

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My motion, in fact, is based on two paragraphs from Mr. Page's remarks. It reads as follows:

The committee on government operations calls on Treasury Board to submit the planned and approved fiscal framework, departmental annual spending reference levels, departmental strategies for savings, service level standards as well as fully loaded costs for program activities for affected departments.

Would you agree to that?

We used the English version of the remarks. That will be tabled with the committee. As Madam Chair indicated, we...

[Kevin Page]

Generally speaking, we are quite satisfied with the recommendation, with the motion. We believe it is important to make things as specific as possible, in order to obtain a greater level of detail, since this is information concerning projections over the next five years.

Is there anything to add with regard to clarity?

[Sahir Khan, Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament]

There are the details concerning program costs and related operating costs. You must refer to program costs. It would also be very useful for us to have the operating costs.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

So you want the fully loaded costs for program activities. That is what I refer to. Does that cover the issue?

[Sahir Khan]

It would help us if you added the word “operations.”

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

“The fully loaded costs for program activities and operations for affected departments,” would that be appropriated?

[Sahir Khan]

Yes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Jumping over the next block because it is irrelevant in English.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I think if they took the two paragraphs you had--and I'll read the English version. I think the translators did not have the thing. It reads that the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates demand that the Treasury Board submit a planned and approved fiscal framework, departmental annual spending reference levels and departmental strategies for savings, service level standards, and fully loaded costs for program activities for affected departments.

I think that's what you picked up right from your presentation.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Madam Chair, the original version is in French, no?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

That's good.

If you have some discomfort that what we are asking is wrong, then fine, we'll take it as a vote and then we will ensure the motion, because it's the business of the committee. If it passes, then the information we receive is first guarded by the committee and then the committee decides where it goes.

Mr. Gourde first, then Mr. Warkentin

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to take the opportunity to ask the witnesses, since we are discussing the motion with them...

Will the office have enough staff to conduct such a study, given that there is already other work underway, and will it require hiring additional resources? I would like to check that with our witnesses, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

That's a good question, and when we discuss the motion, perhaps we can do that. We're not discussing the motion; we just wanted their understanding that this is the information we feel they are missing. If that's the case, then we will proceed on a procedural matter. We have to get that motion to the committee.

Yes, Mr. Martin.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I don't see where in the report....

I can't find that language in my report. The way it's worded it seems almost incomprehensible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

It's page 3.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Are those paragraphs one and two?

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Yes, that is correct.